Hello ladies and gentlemen, Following a very documented topic found here https://www.cointalk.com/threads/an...onia-pontika-anchor-gorgoneion-drachm.362367/ (I don't want to monopolize that thread) I would like, if possible, please, to confirm the situation with my Apollonia Pontica drachm, which I strongly suspect it's a fake. DonnaML provided very valuable info there, finding some articles on WebArchive regarding this subject. I knew that the Apollonia Pontica are a favorite area for forgeries, but not on that level. Saw the 48 examples presented as the New York Hoard fakes and number 40 stroke me. Top - the fake spotted by Reid Goldsborough Bottom - my coin. I need to specify something - even if it is a fake (like I suspect) I am disappointed but not extremely bothered, as I don't think there is a single collector who avoided this. I am not blaming the auction house - I emailed them asking for advice. The similarity is not a good sign at all. But is it a die match? The eyes of Medusa are similar but not identical - on my example they look more defined. And the major difference I spot is the row of beads - round shape on Specimen 40 and slightly different shape on mine I know fakes are very difficult to spot on these types and the large number of fakes made many collector to lose interest for the Gorgoinon drachms (I don't think I will risk for the second time) So, even if I am not optimistic at all, is there the possibility for this coin to be genuine? also, the row of beads - is the difference suggesting this is NOT a die match? Many thanks.
The crystallization on the top coin should be hard to fake. In my VERY LIMITED and UNINFORMED experience, these xls are often an indication of a genuine coin. I don't believe an acid etch would do this. Otherwise, we would see more of this type of surface on the other 39 examples. Additionally, the two coins do not look like the same die to me.
The top coin (in my picture) was listed as a fake by Reid Goldsborough https://web.archive.org/web/20141114235344/http://medusacoins.reidgold.com/newyork.html Specimen 40. Even Mr Goldsborough (who is a specialist in this area) mentions: "Including each of these pieces below was the result of the opinions of at least three people with in-depth knowledge of these particular forgeries. This doesn't mean that it's certain that all of the pieces illustrated here are forgeries, just that there's a high probability that they are." So overall a mistery, and mine adds to it.
I'm not sure if it's a die match or not, but it's awfully close. On the other hand, your coin resembles one of the genuine types illustrated by Goldsborough, although not as closely. Even if it's not a die match to the fake, I think you have to keep in mind that the entire universe of fakes isn't represented by those 48 examples from the New York Hoard from whenever they came on the market -- 20 years ago? I'm sure that there are people in certain countries who've made new fakes since then. I still think your best bet may be to return the coin if you can, because I'm not sure that you'll ever be able to satisfy yourself that it's genuine. Die match or not.
I did read what he wrote and I'll be the first to admit that Mr. Goldsborough and the other three experts know more about ancients than I ever will. Nevertheless, I give all "experts" the same weight from past experience. You see, twice in my career I was odd-man-out against several long-time, major ancient dealers in the US. Once with a genuine coin they all condemned and once with a fake they all though was OK. In both cases, the folks at the British Museum agreed with my "rookie" opinion. I made two statements about the posted coins. No die match and the type of crystallization looks genuine. That's all. I don't authenticate coins from images; yet in this format, I've posted some observations (after saying that I know nothing and to let my opinion go in one ear and out the other!).
...it lQQks ok from what i can see...but as @Insider said, even the top one can't be said to be fake because of the crystalization...on some coins its a hard call..but i wouldn't dispute an expert(cause i happen to be one...JK)...
Thank you all. Regarding Mr Goldsborough's article, what I can say is that in these cases you just cannot be sure - he also mentioned he cannot say he's certain. This is why I always appreciate a different opinion - @Insider - I am glad when I see cases like you described, and even if in my particular case I don't think I will clarify the situation, I am glad it is not quite a die match, as my coin was marked as fake, die match, on a different place. @DonnaML - thank you and once again thanks for creating the initial thread I am not sure about what I will decide about returning it - if I am not sure if it's a fake, I will prefer to keep it... I think. @ominus1 - that is my exact opinion about the subject @DiomedesofArgos - good spot, that one is even more obvious than what I spotted, so this proves that ... this is not a die match with a coin that is considered a fake but one cannot guarantee that it is really a fake. Not much but at least not a clear verdict. At least I can say for sure that ... my example cannot unanimously be considered a fake. I think I will choose to avoid any Apollonia Pontica drachm unless a seller provides a clear provenance date, let's say something before 1960-70, but this is somewhat unlikely.
ambr0zie, Forty years ago, heck even thirty years ago, and even after that hoard of fakes hit the market __?__ years ago, there was no reason to make a counterfeit of an inexpensive fake and corrode, circulate, damage it to appear beat up and old. Although things are much different today - many excellent counterfeit coins (at least in the US series) are made more deceptive by adding something that would cause it to be "detailed" by a TPGS, if the price is right and you like the coin, it has a good chance of being genuine and I'd keep it.
I recognize three kinds of coins: 1. Those I believe are fake 2. Those I believe are real 3. Those I do not know well enough to have an opinion On the Black Sea area coins the lines between these categories are blurry enough that I do not buy any more than I already have but I do not sell the ones I have. To change that, I would have to study enough to become more expert than I am willing to do as a general collector. There are 10,000 other coin types I do not have and would feel more secure buying.
@ominus1 - I like it and the price was right, I think - 24 EUR + taxes. so under 30. I wanted one and I lost it in an auction, I liked that one better but I was overbid, I got this one in the same auction. The funny part was that it's one of my favorite coins, for the design... The price was OK and I don't want to send it back. Another bad part is that I didn't know the forgeries on these types reach this level. When I found out, I said it's no problem, since the coin is corroded, this would be a good sign. I checked some possible fakes, as the situation is far from clear, and nothing seemed similar until I saw that article with the hoard and when I found the one I used for comparison things got very unclear. @dougsmit - thank you for your opinion and I hope you see I am quite serious in collecting and passionate, even if, after a hard day's work, I said that the R looking like an A is annoying I apologize if I offended any collector specialized in LRBs as this was far from my intention - I also have some LRBs and I study them as carefully as I do with 1st and 2nd century RIC, I just like them less. I pay attention to details as this is mandatory for this hobby and I like it. I am quite proud that I managed to identify almost all my coins without help, even if 3 months ago my contact with ancient coins was limited to a handful of LRBs that reached me by chance. My specialty is, or was, coins and banknotes from my country (I don't think US collectors are too interested in Romanian coins and notes, but if anybody is interested, I can help ). That is my comfort zone and it's difficult to be deceived (although never say never). Things are simpler - the forgeries are poor (for experienced collectors) and anyway if you have a doubt, you just weight the coin, study it with a magnifying glass and clarify. I hate fakes, generally speaking, and I wouldn't buy one and obviously I wouldn't sell one (I rarely sell anything, just sold 30 coins and notes in my 8 years of active collecting, and I sold those because I replaced them with better coins/notes). I have some fakes I kept just for fun, in a jar on my desk. A Romanian coin with an incorrect legend, used on a different coin (well done, guys) , a cast fake with an obverse from Poland and a reverse from France (...) and a what I thought was a coin from Milano, 13-14th century, got it from a numismatic fair about 5-6 years ago. For the equivalent of 5$. Of course it was a cheap fake, I found out then that when a seller rushes you into buying something and it's a bargain, things might be different than they look. I am new to ancient coins world and I want to study and make sure I buy pieces of history, not pieces of metal. May I ask what are other known VERY gray areas, because I want to avoid them? I know Athens owls are problematic and also the gold Koson coins, from my geographic area.
I'm not sure Athens owls are considered so problematic as long as you buy from a reputable dealer, especially now that there's such a large supply of genuine examples that have recently entered the market, from a hoard that was discovered (probably in Turkey). I have read that there are a lot of fake Tiberius denarii -- the so-called "Tribute Penny." I"m sure there are many other types known for large numbers of fakes. Look at the fakes list at Forvm, linked in my original thread. May I ask what are other known VERY gray areas, because I want to avoid them? I know Athens owls are problematic and also the gold Koson coins, from my geographic area.
DonnaML has the best answer. Until any of us get to the point that we feel comfortable, and I mean really comfortable, with a series of coin, it is advisable to buy from someone who is both honest and knowledgeable with coins of that type. I am a bit more adventurous with coins in my areas of specialty but get nervous when I am buying something about which I am not familiar. This is triply true when that coin is ANY of the popular types that sell easily to people who do not collect ancient coins. That list is led by the types mentioned in the Bible. Thousands of Christians only want 'Tribute Pennies' and '30 Pieces of Silver'. A few years ago I visited a small local coin shop in Ohio (we saw it when we got off the Interstate for lunch). They had about a hundred somewhat ordinary ancients (LRB, Widow's Mites in low grade and perhaps fifty Byzantine bronzes of which half were Christ type Anonymous issues in well worn condition. Also in the group were between 5 and 10 (memory fails) Tiberius/Livia Tribute Pennies and every one was, to my eyes, obviously fake. None were even a little deceptive. The shop owner had no idea what he had and seemed to appreciate my opinions on the matter of ID and prices. I bought a half a dozen assorted low end Byzantine coins at what I considered fair prices and he said something to the effect that he trusted me because I did not offer to buy any of those Tribute Pennies so I must have been truthful about them being fake. This A2 appealed to me for the style A used on the reverse which was new to me then. It was $5. The entire group of coins was probably worth what he had paid the heirs but he had no idea what to ask for what was obviously the gatherings of a Christian grandpa (perhaps a Pastor?). I laid out and identified half a dozen of the better coins (in which I had no interest) and told him the rest were best offered as 'ancients'. I suggested to him that he put the Christ folles in a dish and offer them to his walk in (all non-ancient) collectors for $10 or $15 each (probably twice their worth). He acted like that was a good idea but I never revisited that shop so I'll never know. This is my example of the blind leading the blind. "בשוק סמייא צווחין לעווירא סגי נהור", meaning "In the street of the blind, the one-eyed man is called the Guiding Light",B'reshith Rabba. Had the heirs sent those coins to 'real' dealers in ancients, the lot would have been rejected for any price. I hope he sold them and may even have lit a fire of interest in some kid who came to his shop to buy Lincoln cents. We can dream.
I have to admit I am a little discouraged now as reading and seeing a big number of forgeries - some of them marked as obvious by experienced collectors makes me a little anxious. Of course, if you easily find 5 examples of die matches / badly cast coins / tourist replicas EXTREMELY obvious, those are easy to spot but I am wondering why don't I observe some fakes. I only buy from reputable auction houses, I know from my modern coins experience that if something is too good to be true, most likely it isn't true. I also avoid sellers in my country as trading ancient coins is illegal when bought from unofficial sources. As for Black Sea area being.... gray area, that's quite a pity as I was born and I live here so it would be an interesting area to develop.
These issues have scared me since 1987 when World Coin News was publishing news of the "Black Sea Fakes." It seemed like these were coming over to the USA market by the ton and they looked good to me. Someday I might get one, but it will be part of a lot, or a very, very cheap one on eBay. I simply do not know enough to pay retail (and I'm cheap).
