Any specific reason to doubt the authenticity of this Apollonia Pontika Anchor/Gorgoneion Drachm?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by DonnaML, Jun 26, 2020.

  1. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    I am well aware that as common as genuine examples of the Apollonia Pontika AR drachms from the 5th and 4th centuries BCE may be -- both the ones with a gorgoneion/Medusa on one side, and the ones depicting Apollo -- they are notorious for the large numbers of fakes that have entered the market in the last couple of decades, particularly via the so-called "Black Sea Hoard" and "New York Hoard." But I've wanted one with a Medusa for some time, so I recently bought one from a reputable seller (London Ancient Coins) -- but only after looking at every single one of the many examples of fakes of these coins posted on "Dr. Ilya Prokopov's Fake Ancient Coin Reports" (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/), to confirm that the coin I planned to buy didn't resemble any of them.

    I also studied the relevant articles, with images of both fakes and genuine examples, by Reid Goldsborough -- which I had to dig up from the Wayback Machine, because the old links don't work and the articles don't appear to be on his current website; see Apollonia Pontika Drachms (https://web.archive.org/web/20141115000124/http://medusacoins.reidgold.com/apollonia.html) and Apollonia Pontika Fakes: "New York" Hoard (https://web.archive.org/web/20141114235344/http://medusacoins.reidgold.com/newyork.html) -- and Ed Snible (see Black Sea Hoard and other Apollonia diobol fakes, at
    http://snible.org/coins/black_sea_hoard.html). The coin I was interested in didn't resemble any of the fakes posted, or any of the genuine examples described as the kinds most commonly faked. To the contrary, I found at least one genuine type -- not described as commonly faked -- which my prospective purchase did resemble. (See below.) The diameter of the one I wanted was also within what seems to be the normal range for genuine examples; the weight is a little bit low, but not significantly so, I think.

    So I went ahead and took the plunge, and bought this one:

    Thrace, Apollonia Pontika, AR Drachm, ca. 450-400 BCE. Obv. Upright anchor with large flukes and curved stock; “A” [for Apollonia] to left and crayfish to right between flukes and stock / Rev. Facing gorgoneion (Medusa), wavy hair parted in middle, 16 open-mouthed snakes around head as additional hair or crown, puffy cheeks, mouth open, tongue protruding (but not extending below chin), all within shallow incuse. Goldsborough Type 3 [Goldsborough, Reid, Apollonia Pontika Drachms (see https://web.archive.org/web/20141115000124/http://medusacoins.reidgold.com/apollonia.html), Catalogue of Types]; Seaby 1655 var. (crayfish to left, A to right) [Sear, David, Greek Coins and their Values, Vol. 1: Europe (Seaby 1978)]; Topalov Nos. 41-42 [Topalov, Stavri, Apollonia Pontika: Contribution to the Study of the Coin Minting of the City 6th - 1st c. B.C., Catalogue of Apollonia Coins, 7th-1st c. B.C. (Sofia, 2007) (English Translation, Kindle edition)]; BMC 15 Mysia 2-4, 8 [Wroth, Warwick, A Catalog of the Greek Coins in the British Museum, Vol. 15, Mysia (London, 1892) at p. 8]; SNG.BM.159 [Sylloge Nummorum Graecorum, Great Britain, Volume IX, British Museum, Part 1: The Black Sea (London, 1993)] [online ID SNGuk_0901_0159 ]; see also id. Nos. 154-158. 14 mm., 2.96 g., 3 h.

    Thrace, Apollonia Pontika, c. mid-late 5th century BC. AR Drachm (Gorgoneion-Anchor) jpg version.jpg
    Here's the image from Goldsborough's Apollina Pontika article of the type of gorgoneion or Medusa he classifies as "Type 3"; I do believe that it at least somewhat resembles the one on my coin:

    Apollonia Pontika Drachm Type 3 (Anchor  - Medusa), Reid Goldsborough.jpg

    For a contrast, here are Goldsborough's Types 1 and 2, which he describes as follows: "Types 1 and 2 are seen the most frequently, and these are the varieties that the New York Hoard forgeries are patterned after. These are the only varieties in which Medusa has a small head and dramatically puffed-out cheeks. With Types 6 to 16, Medusa's face is rounder and proportioned more like a human face. Types 3 to 5 depict Medusa with slightly puffed-out cheeks."

    Apollonia Pontika Drachm Types 1 & 2 (Most Commonly Faked) (Anchor  - Medusa), Reid Goldsborough.jpg

    As careful as I was, of course one can never be sure. So I thought I'd ask if any of you has any specific reason, based on the photos I'm posting here, to doubt the authenticity of my coin -- apart from whatever generalized suspicions you may have of all examples of this kind of coin!
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
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  3. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    I am always careful not to render an opinion, as I never purport that I am an expert. It looks like you have done your homework. Great.

    I am going to toss out my Apollonia, however the obverse reflects the Patron God of that city, rather than an Gorgon. (I have several other Gorgons from elsewhere.) I trust mine as I captured it from a very trusted Seller.

    upload_2020-6-26_18-53-27.png
    Apollonia Pontika, Thrace.
    AR Diobol (1.3g)
    410/404-341/323 BCE
    Obv: Full-face laureate Apollo with short hair.
    Rev: Magistrate's initals around the images. Upright anchor with thick flukes and a rectangular stock. The letter A on one side and the additional symbol of a crab viewed from above on the other side between flukes and the stock.
    Topalov 56.
    Ex: @red_spork


    I also think it is really cool to see how ANCIENT Anchors are depicted vs MODERN Anchors. Although the Anchor does not appear to have changed radically over 2,400+ years, Ancient Anchors appear to be shown in a hanging position, whereas Modern Anchors are upside-down. It isn't even in a resting position, as under water when anchored. If anchored, it would be resting on its side, blade into soil underneath.
    upload_2020-6-26_19-1-18.png
    upload_2020-6-26_19-4-47.png
    upload_2020-6-26_19-7-11.png
    upload_2020-6-26_19-5-33.png
     
  4. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    BeaUtiFuL new coin! :artist::woot:
    I LOVE Gorgons!!!:kiss::dead:

    20200623_192019.jpg
    20200321_192053_IMG_4837.PNG
    And youuuurs looooooks bat $h¡+ crazy:jimlad::punch::mask::singing:... just the way I likes em!:D (check out mine)

    20190713_123549_BD8A664B-D91D-4802-B84A-1FD5C125F055-2188-0000030E7341962C.png
    THRACE, Apollonia Pontica
    After 450 BCE. AR Reduced Drachm (14.38 MM 2.31 gm). Head of Gorgon facing, tongue protruding / Anchor with crayfish and A at sides. SNG.BM.162. aXF

    (I apologize for the upside down reverse in advance)
    The frustration of buying these coins and anxiety once you acquire one is near unbearable:confused:
    I've long flirted with the idea of sending this beauty off to Sears, but am to strapped to pay an extra $50 on a coin I paid only 2 or 3 x that for. I searched everywhere I could and asked CT, and got positive responses... but still I worry about authenticity.
    Wish I had an opinion about yours other than that I hope it's real:)
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
  5. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Your example looks a great deal like Reid Goldsborough's "Type 2," pictured in my post above.
     
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  6. svessien

    svessien Senior Member

    22DE99B6-FD85-4CAB-BEE2-980DABCF62FA.jpeg

    I have the suspect type 1. Luckily there is a die link to a coin with good pedigree.
    I really like these coins, and have often thought about buying more of them, but that would mean spending a lot of time reading up on forgeries.
     
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  7. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    I like yours a lot! I think I'll stick with one for the time being as well. I don't want to have to spend all those hours again looking at photos of fake and genuine examples, before buying another one.
     
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  8. dadams

    dadams Well-Known Member

    I can't comment upon authenticity, but you've done your due diligence and bought from a reputable dealer so you should be confident in your purchase. I too looked for one of these for quite a while before finding one I liked from a dealer I liked at price I liked:

    Thrace_Apollonia-Pontika_SNG-Copenhagen-459.jpg
    Apollonia Pontika, Thrace. 470- 450 BC. AR diobol (14mm, 2.8gm)
    OBV: facing head of Gorgon
    REV: Anchor; crayfish in r. field; A in l. field.
    SNG Copenhagen 459
    Ex: Victors Imperial Coins

    (I made a note to myself on this coin but haven't revisited the question nor confirmed: I think this is a Drachm [AR Reduced Drachm] - see Snible, not a diobol)
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
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  9. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    I think the date of 470-450 BCE is much too early for your coin, for the simple reason that you can see that the Medusa is on the obverse (convex side) and the anchor is on the reverse (concave side), and that switch didn't happen until about 400 BCE. I also think the Medusa -- with her "hair" looking like it's in curlers! -- looks something like Goldsborough's Type 13, although perhaps it's more of a "transitional" type from the earlier, open-mouthed, more puffy-cheeked versions: Goldsborough Type 13, Apollina Pontika, Medusa on obverse.jpg

    Also, I'm pretty sure it is a drachm rather than a diobol: all or most of the Apollonia Pontika diobols depicted Apollo, not Medusa. As Goldsborough states:

    "I believe that with Types 14 through 16, Medusa is beginning to morph into Apollo, which isn't fully realized until the smaller Apollonia Pontika diobols. With the diobols, Medusa's snaky hair transforms into Apollo's spiked hair or laurels, and his tongue is firmly in his mouth."
     
  10. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    It does have the somewhat "puffed out cheeks"...:nailbiting:
     
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  11. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Mine is overstruck on something. What?
    g30795fd0655.jpg

    For those who like smaller coins, there is a tetartemorion. 5mm 0.16g.
    g30802fd1140.jpg
     
  12. svessien

    svessien Senior Member

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  13. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

  14. Carl Wilmont

    Carl Wilmont Well-Known Member

    Nice write-up with useful links, @DonnaML! @Alegandron, the post on anchors was also interesting. @Ryro, your funny cartoon fits the thread well.

    These are neat coins! I selected one with a well-struck crayfish, a crustacean which I enjoyed capturing in rocky streams when I was a boy. Medusa's serpentine hair appears to be "at rest" in this one. I also like the "crazy hair" examples very much.

    Thrace Apollonia Pontica Gorgon & Crawfish .jpg

    The coin also brings to mind another childhood memory. As a kid, I enjoyed going to yard sales, and I was very pleased and excited to bring home this find:

    Perseus.jpg

    Note Pegasus on Perseus' helmet, and Medusa on his breastplate. (@Ryro, you need one of these to display in your home! :))

    thumbnail_IMG_9388.jpg

    I still like to visit yard sales, estate sales, and antique stores, and now I also enjoy my relatively new pursuit of ancient coins!
     
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  15. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

  16. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    Indeed I do! That bust is AMAZING:woot::wideyed:
    Any indications of where it was made or by whom?
    I need I NEED!
    200.gif

    Ps, great coin as well:)
     
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  17. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    For anyone interested, in the second Goldsborough article that I found on the Wayback Machine -- the one on the fake Apollina Pontika Medusa/anchor drachms in the "New York Hoard"; see the link in my original post -- he gives the following suggestions for detecting such fakes, although it's clear that not one of them is foolproof:

    "Most of these pieces have fairly convincing flans. In fact, their overall eye appeal is generally better than authentic coins of this type, with a wilder looking Medusa and a more clearly defined crayfish. They exhibit a similar kind of flamboyance that the Bulgarian replica maker Slavey Petrov has made famous and that other Bulgarians have imitated. The authentic coins, on the other hand, frequently appear on misshapen flans, are poorly centered, and exhibit large edge splits.

    Though there aren't universal diagnostics for these fakes, there are indications, according to Robert Kokotailo, owner of Calgary Coin & Antique and moderator of the Ancient Coin Forgery Discussion List, the observations of others, and my own observations:

    • With the fakes, Medusa's forehead is small relative to the rest of the head, and the cheeks are puffed out. But this isn't foolproof because many genuine coins were struck with this style as well, the varieties I'm calling Type One and Type Two, illustrated on the previous page of this site.
    • On some of the fakes, Medusa's hair consists of two rows of beads instead of one, while I have yet to come across one genuine Type One or Type Two coin documented in the literature with two rows of beads, though authentic-looking two-row specimens ocassionally appear on the market.
    • Medusa has a wide-eyed demonic expression on many of the fakes, while on many of the authentic coins the expression is almost comical, though on some of the fakes the expression is comical and on some of the authentic coins it's demonic.
    • Medusa's eyes have a slanted "Oriental" or Asian appearance on many of the fakes, though some authentic specimens also appear this way.
    • Medusa's eyes have a clouded, cataract look on many of the fakes, though some authentic specimens also appear this way.
    • On many, not all, of the fakes, the crayfish has more than six legs, which are very finely rendered.
    • The center groove of the anchor on many, though not all, of the fakes is very pronounced, while this groove may not be present at all on authentic coins.
    • Some of the fakes are well-struck and well-centered on well-rounded flans, while many of the authentic coins are struck off-center on odd-shaped, ragged flans. This also isn't foolproof because some of the genuine coins are well-centered, some of the fakes are off-center, and so on, as the examples below show.
    • With most of the fakes, the high point of the concave reverse -- Medusa's nose -- is above the plane of the coin's rim, while on most of the authentic coins, the nose is below this plane. You can make this determination by placing the coin on a table reverse-side down to see if it rocks back and forth on Medusa's nose.
    • Many of the fakes have unnatural-looking golden-brown or gray-brown toning, but this toning comes off with cleaning, so this also isn't definitive.
    All of this reinforces the notion that counterfeit detection isn't an exact science and that collecting ancient coins isn't risk free."

    Perhaps more helpful are the photos of 48 different "New York Hoard" fakes that Goldsborough provides in the article.
     
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  18. svessien

    svessien Senior Member

    I would guess France late 19th/early 20th century. There are many nice bronzes with classical motives made there at that time. Could of course be from the US too, as there are many similarities in engraving styles between the two countries from the period. Rotys sower and Weinmans Walking Liberty, for example.
    I could of course be totally wrong, and hopefully Carl can straight me out.
     
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  19. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    You could always try a reverse Google Images search.
     
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  20. Carl Wilmont

    Carl Wilmont Well-Known Member

    Well, @Ryro, I was doubtful that I could find anything on it- but with the threat of that spoiled, impudent lass screaming at me incessantly (fun to watch in that great movie, but not in real life, or even on CoinTalk), :nailbiting:, I checked, and, to my surprise, the internet came through! The only marking on the back of it was "ROYAL"- and, in the end, I don't even think I needed that for the search engine. I typed in "aluminum cast perseus wall hanging by ROYAL" and instantly had lots of hits, including this post from Easy with one for sale for $50 (which, although is many multiples of my childhood yard sale price, is probably a reasonable ask today):https://www.etsy.com/listing/507594227/vintage-greek-mythology-wall-art-head. I saw another one posted at $75.

    Let me know if you get one!

    PS: @svessien, it would be nice to have one in bronze!
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
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  21. dadams

    dadams Well-Known Member

    Thank you for the information! I looked at the Goldsborough types and much agree in your assessment as Type 13 - my coin seems to fall right in there between 12 and 13. I like this coin much, but I think I'll need to have the earlier wild hair version too. (Kind of sad that as nice a resource as Reid Goldsborough's pages are that they are relegated to the WBM, but at least they are still accessible)

    -d
     
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