Some of the most common Greek silver coins of fractional denominations are from Kyzikos (Cyzicus) with the forepart of boar with tunny behind / lion's head like this one: It comes in various weights and small denominations. This one is 9 mm and 0.82 grams, probably an obol. There are also hemi-obols and even smaller denominations with the same basic design. There are 59 with design very much like this one on vcoins as I write. The type is common. Sear Greek 3848. Klein 264. BMC Mysia Cycicus 121. Now the next coin from Kyzicos is earlier and different in significant ways. Head of Hemes right wearing winged petasos KY IZ (Z shaped differently than my fonts allow) around tunny right 7 mm. 0.25 grams. (That is very small.) The attribution to Kyzikos is obvious, both from the lettering and the tunny. But, the attribution would not be so obvious from checking the major catalogs. SNG Copenhagen -- Supplement --, BMC Mysia --, SNG France Mysie -- Sear Greek --, Klein --, Rosen --, Boston --, Dewing --, SNG Turkey I Kayhan -- and SNG von Aulock 7338 (It's in there!) So, given only pre-internet-style sources, it would be called very (or even "extremely") rare. However, now we do searches with modern on-line databases which have digital images, mostly from auctions since about 2000. acsearch has no examples offered prior to 2011, so it was rare enough to not appear in their auctions for a decade. In 2011 at least two bidders thought it was very rare: https://www.acsearch.info/search.ht...s=1&thesaurus=1&order=0¤cy=usd&company= That example, which is not better, hammered at $1300! (That same coin and price-realized is listed twice because it the auction conducted jointly by two firms and it is under each of the firm names). It looks like since then maybe a dozen have appeared (several listed twice on acsearch), most closer to $100 as the hammer price. So, I think the "very rare" label is no longer applicable. However, there are none on vcoins or MA-Shops and I am still calling it "rare." But, auction records no longer price it as something highly desirable. Why is that? I have my own thoughts and would love to hear yours. I think that rarity boosts price when collectors "need" a type to complete a set, but this type does not fit any commonly collected set. (I once wrote an article on rarity and its impact on cost. It is on the web here.) Also, experienced collectors realize that many thousands of types are "rare" and they can't afford to care about rarity as much as the other possible reasons for desiring a coin (It's old, it's beautiful, it's historical, it's big, it's gold, etc.). This type might be desirable because "It's small" but that is not going to add much, if anything, to its price: I think that both condition and rarity are important for price, but that condition is, relative to the previous century, relatively more important and rarity less so. There are just too many rarities to care about them unless they fit some limited list (like the list by Ras Suarez of frequencies of Romans on imperial coins). What are your thoughts about rarity and condition?
Firstly, cool coin! It looks very well engraved for such a small coin and the relief looks high. That's a good point, one I hadn't really considered. I suspect for new and new-ish collectors-- if they aren't heavily under the spell of Grade Is King-- the word rare in a coin's description automatically triggers desire without even knowing why it is considered rare or if the word is even warranted and almost regardless of condition. Eventually, as you noted, it becomes clear that there are just so many rarities that a person can't afford to pay a premium for all of them. I'm much more swayed by rarity when the design itself is unlike other coins. Minor differences in legends*, placement of devices, left/right bust, etc, don't excite me much or at all. A wholly new design or significantly different design, however, gets my heart rate up . *Edited to clarify: differently abbreviated words or differently split legends, for instance.
TIF is 100% right on this matter. Specialists get their pulse up when they discover a dot in a slightly different place and some of them have enough money to drive up a price when two of them butt heads. Many of us have one or more coins that are the only one known when you come to an exact match. We post them here and most of us, if truly honest, would post a 'yawn' emogee. A 'significantly' different design is not Victory left rather than right. It is not an officina not listed in RIC for that type/mint/issue. Many of us deserve the yawn when we post a completely different coin but from a series that no one else here collects. There are books on specialties so obscure that few will ever see let alone own (I'm thinking Brian Kritt here) and a thousand specialties where rarities outnumber common coins that most will never touch. There are however many collectors who would rather have one of ten thousand perfect examples of a common coin that the one and only surviving coin that is only VF. It is the hobby as we see it practiced today. Kyzikos tetartemorion 7mm 0.2g 550-480 BC same size but maybe a century later Neither of these is common and nether interests very many people. I paid a premium for these because they are not exactly like most I see. The chance of selling them for a profit during my lifetime is slim. Do either of these exist in the number shown on acsearch for the Hermes? Does some dealer out there have a sack of these to meter out on the market one at a time?
This morning I realized rarity in modern American coinage has reached a new level of lunacy . While going over the results from Great Collections weekly auction I spotted a 1935-S Mercury dime slabbed by PCGS MS68 FB (full bands), see photo below, courtesy of PCGS. I'm using the PCGS photo because the one posted by G.C. was out of focus & much to bright. The mintage on this issue was over 15,000,000 coins. This coin sold for $76,562.50, including buyers premium ! PCGS has slabbed two coins with this grade & list it in their price guide for $90,000.00 . The next grade lower, MS67 FB, has a PCGS population of 108 coins & lists in their price guide for $1,150.00 ! That's a difference of $88,850.00 for 1 grading point. The ancient coin pictured below is a major variety with only 2 known examples that I recently won at auction for $360.00 .
"Lunacy" is right. We recently had this thread: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/which-coin-is-a-better-investment.347257/ where a 1945-D nickel in MS 68 sold for over $20,000 because it is the highest graded one. You and I could get one so nice we could not tell the difference for $85 (MS 66 is very high grade). $85 or $20,000 for two coins I can't tell apart? Crazy! Here is an on-line price guide at: https://www.pcgs.com/prices/detail/jefferson-nickel/84/most-active Here is a screenshot of the relevant line Readers out there, if you are a US coin collector and sick of this nonsense, follow the ancient forum and rediscover the joys of coin collecting.
Very interesting write up @Valentinian. This article also talks about condition and rarity, and is referred to herein as condition rarity and absolute rarity: https://coinweek.com/us-coins/condition-rarity-vs-absolute-rarity-in-coin-collecting/
Yes, but...... The same thing goes on in ancients. We peons don't see the transactions for the finest coins. I own a $300 coin where the finest one known sold over $100,000. We have people collecting slabs by label grade who would not know where to look to tell the difference between MS and EF. People are sure that the $100k coin will sell for a profit. They may be right.
I find that it's hard to ever talk about rarity without also considering desirability. The ongoing sales of BCD's Thessalian coins have been instructive. This small bronze of Pherai struck by the tyrant Alexander is distinctive, historically interesting, and while scarce, has never been outright rare. This particular example, described as "Good VF... exceptional for issue", hammered for $2000 in 2011. This other example, in 2013, went for $1900: Examples in lower grades sold around the same time still fetched between $500 and $900. Fast forward a few years later to the BCD sales ongoing since 2016, and the type seems to have become a fair bit more common, and apparently A LOT less desirable. This "VF" I picked up in 2017 hammered for $80. Some others have gone for as little as $55 before fees. If those "exceptional" coins were sold today, would they fetch anywhere near $2k? Or closer to $200? Grade and rarity are both important, but desirability trumps all. As a collector, I'm happy when types I desire become less desirable to everyone else.
zumbly, Your small bronze for $80 sure looks like a super bargain . The ancient coin market works in cycles like all other markets, & no doubt the market for ancient coins 10 years ago was much stronger than it is today . Many of the coins I bought 10-15 years ago would be losers on the auction circuit today . Many factors beyond our control influence markets for better or worse. I believe we are still in a major slump. One example I'd like to point out is CNG Auction 442. This spectacular offering of Valerianic coinage last April, in my opinion, did poorly despite being well advertised. There were many rarities in this collection that sold for peanuts. I'm not a serious collector of coins from this era but I know many CT members are. Yet I don't recall anyone posting a coin from this auction .
Agreed. However, if you do NOT ascribe a relative price to RARITY, then just having a RARITY at an affordable price is very appealing to me. I beleive that for HISTORICAL reasons, the coin's Rarity appeals to me. RARITY: 2 Known PROVENANCE: EE CLAIN-STEFFANELLI CIVILIZATION (Founded Rome): Etruria, with all AR / AE coins harder to get... Etruria, Populonia 2 ½ asses 3rd century BC, AR 0.85 g. Radiate female head r.; behind, CII. Rev. Blank. EC 104 (misdescribed, Female head with an Attic helmet). Historia Numorum Italy 179. Of the highest rarity, apparently only the second specimen known. Dark patina and about very fine From the collection of E.E. Clain-Stefanelli.
@Valentinian , what a GREAT coin! I really like that Obol. I always envisioned the petasos as more of a flatter hat with brim, like: However, I see the wings on the conical hat on your coin. ... but very similar to VULCAN's conical cap. My only Hermes: Sicily Menainon Hermes in petasos, caduceus, two pellets Hexas My VULCAN Samnium Aesernia 263-240 BC AE 20 Vulcan Pilos Tongs Jupiter Biga Left
I've posted a few of the ex McQ Holmes coins I picked up from that auction more than once on CT. Not all, and in fact many, of the offerings were less than spectacular. To the OP question, the vast majority of the coins of Valerian and Gallienus in all their dizzying variety will simply never interest the vast majority of collectors. A common one in exceptionally high grade will probably fetch more than an exceptionally rare one in low-average grade, but best for it to be both rare as well as minty. Here's an extremely rare variety (only one noted by MIR, in the British Museum! only one other specimen in the Eauze hoard! this possibly just the third known!), from the McQ Holmes sale that was judged good enough only to be sold alongside two other coins in the same lot. According to the provenance noted, even in its earlier sale 30 years ago it was sold as part of a group lot! After auction fees, the three cost me $23.60 a piece. I think it's a pretty decent coin, and I like it in my collection because it's an example from Viminacium, a less common mint for Gallienus. Even then, I didn't bother showing the poor coin here until today. A week from now, will anyone remember that I did? GALLIENUS Billon Antoninianus. 3.11g, 23.7mm. Viminacium mint, issue 3b, circa AD 253-260. MIR 36, 836o; RIC V (joint reign) 398 var. (bust type; Milan); Cunetio –; Eauze 1422. O: IMP GALLIENVS P F AVG, radiate and cuirassed bust right. R: SALVS AVGG, Salus standing right, feeding from patera snake held in her arms. Notes: Extremely rare, only one noted in MIR (in the BM), one additional in the Eauze hoard. Ex N. M. McQ. Holmes Collection; ex Glendining’s (14 December 1989), lot 524 (part of)
Thanks for posting . You're right, there was a lot of mediocre material in the offering , however, the catalog in itself is an excellent reference source with great photos.
I had allotted pretty much my entire collecting budget to winning one of the two Saloninus Augustus coins from that auction and was soundly defeated. There were many nice and rare coins in that auction, but IMO there was too much offered at once for a very small base of serious collectors of that dynasty. Not many of us are wealthy enough to say "I'll take it all!" when too many rarities are offered in too short a time. I, personally, am interested only in a "one each" of that dynasty, although I admittedly have a number of Gallienus coins that I enjoy, particularly for the differences in the portraiture. For my own collection, I could fill a binder page with coins known from fewer than 10 examples. I will admit freely that a legend variant of a common emperor or a variety of an anonymous city-state issue is a lot less exciting than say an ephemeral Roman emperor known from only a few dozen coins. Back to the OP coin, I will say that I don't think I have ever seen that particular type before. Maybe a year and a half ago I managed to win two bulk lots of mostly Kyzikos minors for peanuts from Kairos Numismatics. It was mostly the lion/boar type but it did contain one rarity that I sold to a more avid collector of early Greek AR fractions Kyzikos AR Obol Ca. 500-450 BC Obv: Head of Rooster and tunny Rev: Incuse Perhaps 5-10 known? I got a price I was happy with, which was about a third of what a similar type had sold for a number of years ago @ CNG. Two of my favorite unique coins I haven't been able to part with: Aiolis, Kyme AR "trihemiobol" - only known example of its denomination Cilicia, Kelenderis obol with an unknown pairing of Athena and the kneeling goat - Should be a horse or forepart of Pegasus. Athena is only present on earlier coins of Kelenderis, and only with Pegasus.
