A few Greek coins to end the day

I have taken my grandson to a few coin club meetings and a coin show recently. I was a bit surprised when he said he almost bought some rare coins from an ad in a newspaper with the intent of selling them for a profit. I hope he takes my advice and learns a bit before starting his buying and selling career.

 

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Unfortunately what I have seen too often over the years is that the first lesson learned is that all you have to do is find someone who knows less than you do and is willing to buy without learning any more than you tell them. This can be kids with collectables or used cars that are leaking oil. Profits are there to be made in the short term. Reputations are slow to repair.

 

As I read the posts in this thread, I wonder if, as collectors of ancient coins rather than investors or speculators in the future value of ancient coins, we fully grasp the implications of submitting these rare and very valuable coins to NGC for grading and encapsulation, rather than sending them to experts for verification of genuineness, or directly to a high-quality auctioneer such as NAC, CNG, or Roma if the owner is interested in their value at an auction.

Surely if the owners are concerned only about genuineness, sending them to an expert for a certificate of authenticity would be the most direct route to ascertain this. NGC doesn’t guarantee authenticity so their evaluation is no more useful than that of an independent expert who would provide a certificate of authenticity.

Alternatively, if the owners are considering selling them at an auction, contacting NAC, CNG, and Roma electronically with high-quality pictures would be enough to establish (preliminarily) an estimated auction price, assuming the coins prove to be authentic. Any auction house equipped to handle such rare coins would be able to establish both authenticity as well as provide the widest audience of potential collectors if the coins were to be auctioned. NGC doesn’t provide estimated value as one of their services.

If the owners wanted them protected by encapsulation, anyone could do that with an Everslab or Quickslab.

So, really, what’s the purpose of submitting them to NGC? My personal inference is that the owners plan to sell them and want to attract not only high-end collectors, but deep-pocketed investors and speculators who will bid up the prices but otherwise have no interest in collecting the coins per se. They believe that grading by NGC will increase the appeal to these latter investors and speculators via the commoditization of ancient coin collecting, making it the same as modern coins where one pursues grade rather than the hobby itself.

This is not a trend that I welcome.

 

Especially coins from such old collections may have surface issues because of harsh cleaning. The kimon may get a 3/5 surface for this. A real collector wouldn't care less. A pure investor without deep knowledge may get scared away. I am really puzzled.

 

For people who inherit high-end coins but have no expertise themselves, having them slabbed by NGC isn't a guarantee of authenticity, but certainly constitutes a reliable expert opinion of authenticity, even if not stated as such. And it facilitates the coins' disposition. After all, a certificate of authenticity from someone like David Sear is also just an opinion, and guarantees nothing if the coin proves to be fake other than, at most, the price of the certification.

An auction house, even if its personnel have a great deal of expertise, has a direct financial interest in a coin's being authentic. Hence the preference for a neutral third party opinion.

All that said, I've expressed my personal opinion about slabbed coins many times. I would only submit coins for slabbing if I wanted to sell them, and the coins were valuable enough to justify the expense.

 

First, I'd like to point out that a post slamming NGC isn't appropriate on a thread where an NGC grader was kind enough to show us some stunning coins he happened across. This is a world few of us see, and it was very kind of him to do that.

But, getting to the point, although I've made it clear that I personally don't slab my coins, I can see the value to doing this. The bitter truth is for many coins, slabs do improve the price. If I were to sell, I'd absolutely consider slabbing some of my coins. Heck, I might even consider slabbing coins I only paid $50 for, because even though the grading would cost me more than the coin, I'd still wind up ahead.

The thing is that anyone coming from modern coins or other collectibles is used to slabs, and automatically pays more for any coin in one. You can complain about that all you want, but that's the reality.

 

Please, reread my post a second time.

I'm not "slamming NGC" -- I'm wondering if there is any other inference to having such expensive coins graded and slabbed by NGC other than to increase their price at auction and attract investors and speculators in addition to true collectors. NGC is a company providing a service that appears to be commoditizing the collecting of ancient coins in the same way that modern coins have been. I simply stated that this is not a trend I welcome. Nowhere did I denigrate NGC or the quality of its service, and pointing out that these services are also available elsewhere is not "slamming." You're entitled to interpret this as "slamming," but that's a mischaracterization of what I wrote and simply incorrect.

This is not my personal experience with auction houses. In fact, I could argue that the opposite is more likely to be true -- that very high-level auction houses like NAC and CNG do not want their reputation tarnished as a seller of forgeries and are more likely to be more critical of coins with which they're not familiar. In my own case, NAC contacted my dealer after I won a coin at their auction to inform him that the coin was likely a forgery and to return it. (Read about it in this thread: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/hadrian-aureus-a-tale-of-subtle-differences.283959/)
The coins sent to NGC and illustrated in the first post are beautiful and wonderful to look at. But they were likely purchased legitimately from knowledgeable sources, so it's unlikely that further authentication is necessary. Research on the Internet and consultation with high-end dealers can establish an estimated auction price, so price guidance is not what the owners are seeking from the NGC service. The coins can be protected in any number of ways including encapsulation, so this can't be the primary reason for submitting them to NGC. This pretty much leaves grading as the reason for submission, and if this inference is correct, it's reasonable to conclude that the owners are trying increase the coins' hammer price in a potential auction.

I welcome other supportable, logical interpretations for the reasons that these coins were submitted to NGC. That is the point of my original post. Any interpretation otherwise (e.g., "slamming" NGC) are incorrect and off the point.

 

I understand where you're coming from, but I stand by my previous assertion that when someone from NGC is kind enough to show us some beautiful coins, questioning why they were sent to him in the first place is rude. Maybe the word "slamming" was harsh, but given that NGC is a business, stating that there aren't logical reasons for them to have received the coins (and the necessary fees), isn't really a nice thing to say.

These coins were presented as beautiful works of art, and none of us are owed any logical interpretations for why they were submitted to NGC. We have no knowledge of the goals of the owner(s), so any attempt to jump to conclusions on their motives is most likely incorrect and definitely off the point.

 

Feel free to retrieve a direct quote from either of my posts where I write anything remotely similar to "... there aren't any logical reasons for them to have received the coins..." rather than simply making this up.

Quite the opposite, in fact, I note that in my analysis there is most assuredly a logical reason for the coins to have been sent to NGC:

Obviously, I don't agree. I wondered why owners of such high-end ancient coins would submit them for grading and encapsulation, and I still consider it a suitable topic for discussion on this site. If others don't, then it will simply be ignored and go away. That's fine too.

 

I must admit that I have no background in law, but I find it difficult how to not interpret these sentences in a negative light to NGC. It could be simplified as "NGC provides a service that I do not welcome."

Here again, you're inferring that NGC wasn't the optimal place to send the coins.

I actually do find the discussion interesting. However, I'd prefer to discuss it in a separate thread. Personally, I didn't find the specific questions you were asking rude or incorrect. On the contrary, I very much agree with you on the subject. Where I disagreed, though, was the context. Here's a thread about some beautiful coins that a member of NGC felt kind enough to show us. Given that context, I feel the discussion is inappropriate.

Imagine you started a thread about a beautiful aureus you acquired, and I raised a question on whether it should be permissible for someone to own an aureus vs all of them being in museums. While on a separate thread this may provoke an interesting conversation, my raising it on your thread extolling your aureus would be rather rude.

I'm fine leaving this to rest, as I really feel we've hijacked an otherwise wonderful thread. I feel I've stated my position well enough and can move on with more positive statements.

 

i trust NCG & Barrys opinion here carries a lot of weight....i've sent several coins to them and they sent the forgeries back with a note, along with the other good ones. encapsulated ..now of course, i've just bought two forgeries that i'm hoping will get encapsulated with Karl Beckers name on'em

 

Holy smokes!!!

I wish I owned just one of those gold staters xD

 

As I understood it from the beginning this was exactly the reason for slabs. Without them, either the seller or the buyer needed to have a clue about the coins but placing the coins in plastic allows people who know nothing to buy and sell coins with no real need to become any more educated. I though it was a terrible idea when it started but now it is a fact we all need to accept. I do not know anyone whose opinion I would value over that of the NGC duo but what they have added to the hobby is bringing money in that would not have otherwise been there to overbid those of us who either know about our coins or are willing to patronize those who do. That is not 'good' for my personal hobby since it removes coins I might otherwise have bought. I look forward to the day that prices crash and the 'uneducated' money moves along to buying 'Billy' beer cans or something else.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Beer
Will that happen? You vote every time you bid with a mind that you will make a cash profit rather than just enjoy the coin.

A thought: a day at Disney World now costs over $100. When you are next in Florida, what would you pay for a seat looking over Barry's shoulder as he 'grades' these boxes? Would you feel cheated if you were there on a day with 10,000 LRB's?