1921 Morgan DDO DDR?

Discussion in 'What's it Worth' started by Mirza Beck, May 27, 2015.

  1. Mirza Beck

    Mirza Beck Member

    Friends, here are final pic of the 1921 Morgan thats showing doubling on some sort.
    To my knowledge there are no Pop reports of DDO or DDRs of that age.

    All pic were taken as encased in the plastic caps to prevent glare and more accurate pic to show where the doubling is. Only one pic of the obverse is without the plastic caps on.

    Upon your recommendation submit to PCGS for Grading as DDO and DDR?
    It would be NEW addition to DDO DDR listing in History of the US mint.

    It did check on VAM world ...nothing seem to match.

    Appreciate your vote on this coin.

    God Bless
    Beck.
    PS: Even the underneath the bottom feathers of the eagles are showing doubling. Kinda like the doubling on PCGS pic of the 1901 DDR online post.
     

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    Last edited: May 27, 2015
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  3. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    It would be better to remove the coin from the holder to image it. The images need to be in focus for folks to tell you much about the coin.
     
  4. Rick Stachowski

    Rick Stachowski Motor City Car Capital

    First we need some images of what reverse you have D1 or D2 ??? Looks like D2 but images are very bad to look at ....
     
  5. Mirza Beck

    Mirza Beck Member

    Friends here are more images of the coin without the holder.
    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/1921-morgan-silver-dollar-ddo-n-ddr.262376/

    I am shooting for the PCGS will grade as DDO or DDR or both in one coin. Not trying to match to VAM world. Even so I guess its ok...to compare first.

    I feel that PCGS will gave it that grade only if really heavy and clear doubling is present.And it is.. front and back.

    Thanks for your help, (We all) discoverd it first before PCGS.. awaiting your vote.
     
  6. Rick Stachowski

    Rick Stachowski Motor City Car Capital

    Its either vam 17, 64, 65, 85, 87, 91, take your coin and try to match it to theses vams, as long as you have the D2 reverse .. Otherwise it back to the drawing board ...
     
  7. Mirza Beck

    Mirza Beck Member

    Ok Thanks for your Input and advise.
     
  8. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    That looks like it's hub-doubling on both sides. I looked at the pictures in the other thread, too. Beck, try real hard to understand, it's asking quite a lot of a TPG to ask it to attribute an undocumented-error like this on the fly. First off, they need some silly error-number to hang it on. They're not just going to say, "DDO DDR," in other words. They need that error-number to go on the label. That's to say, they're in the business of taking quick glimpses at coins and appraising their value couched in the vernacular of "grades" based on how pretty or ugly the coins are pursuant to whatever "grading standards" they happen to be using at that particular moment in time. Attribution, in other words, isn't their game, "grading" for their markets is. As such, unless the attribution is documented, i.e., already recognized by the error-experts, it's going to go right over their pretty little heads, as they're not in the business of making cold-attributions. That's the error-experts' job. Once the attribution is documented, as such, i.e., recognized by the error-experts, hopefully, then, they're familiar enough with those, will see it on the coin, and will label it as such. The short of this is, you need the error attributed by an error-expert, first. Again, I think you got it, I think I see enough in these albeit very marginal pictures to say it's an odds-on favorite for a new DDO-DDR. Listen, good luck.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2015
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  9. Rick Stachowski

    Rick Stachowski Motor City Car Capital

    I don't think its new at all, I think Beck is new to this, you can tell from the images he's taking, nothing matches any of the vam images from vam world, thats all ..
     
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  10. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    Many 1921 Morgans have doubling on both sides. Some is hub doubling, some is strike doubling, some is die doubling. Often you'll get all three, and the die doubling is never very strong (except for VAM 4 with strongly doubled 'n' in 'In' on the reverse), making it a challenge to sort out what's on the coin.

    I can't tell what's on your coin from the pictures, but PCGS will not acknowledge the doubling, if it exists. They also won't find the specific VAM that this might be, as they only attribute the more high-profile varieties. ANACS and I would add the VAM number if it can be determined, and it might have more to do with any random scribbling scratches around the eagle's right (viewer's left) foot than it does with die doubling.
     
  11. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    Before you decide to submit this to PCGS, you must determine if it is a VAM that they will accept. If it isn't a Top 100, Hot 50 or Hit List 40, they won't attribute the VAM. Even if it were one of these VAM's, if it isn't a high grade MS, you'd be wasting your money.

    Chris
     
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  12. Mirza Beck

    Mirza Beck Member

    Thanks for your expert advise.That even though it is DDR or DDO its has to be in very High Grade to make it worth while for PGCS grading etc.

    The 5Cents Nickel 1916 DDR sold for $19,000.00 via NGC in VF G-4 grade. Seeing these auctions even in low grade made me think that the a Silver dollar showing these attributes might be worthwhile the effort. Even for keeps sake.
    But, I see PCGS will not grade if its not listed and accepted as a VAM....
     
  13. Mirza Beck

    Mirza Beck Member

    Rick, thanks a Million. Thats the most intelligent answer I gotten yet.. And it does clear the air a whole lot.Where I stand in this game of grading it.

    So, even though I have something worthwhile it has to enter the BOOKs for them to look up instantly and approve a code to go with it. They are not going to go as far a create one for me. Even though its TRUE HUB DOUBLING.

    Should I send it someone like DoubleEddie to start the process rolling.Where he may or may not recommend a future for the coin. Error Experts...?
    Someone who may be a bit more sympathetic towards getting it pictured and checked propertly professionally. Is it even worth it.

    Maybe I'll let this one sit in the banks vault for while till there is excess cash to throw at it.

    God Bless
    Beck.
    PS: How about varietyvista.com
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2015
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  14. Rick Stachowski

    Rick Stachowski Motor City Car Capital

    I'll get in trouble for saying this, but, send me the coin, I'll tell you the vam number it is, I did this for a living for many of years ...
     
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  15. coloradobryan

    coloradobryan Well-Known Member

    I agree with one of the other posters, that for an obscure VAM, Anacs would be your best bet. If you can narrow down what VAM it is, or a range of a few VAM's, it will help the worker bee at the TPG a lot, and avoid some mistakes. If you can't determine the VAM number, then there are a few options you can use, such as getting it checked by a third party, I'm sure some of these guys who are Morgan collectors can point you in the right direction. It does look like hub doubling to me, but the photos are quite blurry, so I can't say 100% for sure. Good catch tough. If you don't mind the cost of getting it slabbed, and you are proud of the coin, by all means get it slabbed, no matter the resale value, especially if you are going to keep it. I've gotten a few coins slabbed, that I really liked, even though they would be a loss after slabbing if I were to sell, I just really like them. Keep up the good work!
     
  16. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Beck, I have to tell you, I think it's definitely worth it. Some, it appears, seem to disagree. I have good eyesight, I see that. In my view, they don't seem to "get," in an error of this magnitude, where the error is apparent on its face, without the assistance of very much magnification, and, it's a hub-error, likely, the grade, simply, is collateral or secondary to the error, which is the main event.

    Look at the thread on the recent discovery in the 1916-D Mercury Dimes. I believe I recall it was a 1916-D. At any rate, that grade was all but embarrassing. But, it was inconsequential, in view of the new discovery of the hub-doubling. The same goes, here.

    There are error-experts for this. I've sent coins to error-experts. A lot of us have. I'd be thinking, right now, of identifying the best one for this, and of sending the coin in for evaluation. It may be the VAM boys, I can't tell you, I don't know enough. There are others, here, I'm sure, who can. Were this mine, I'd get it on CONECA, and give Mike Diamond, B.J., and the boys, a look at it. If they see it, they'll tell you where to send it. Again, good luck to you.
     
  17. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    I have a variety attribution service that mostly does VAMs. Some here have used it, everyone on VAMWorld knows about it. http://varslab.com. If you have questions, feel free to contact me by PM, as I don't want to take up too much message board bandwidth with what could be construed as advertising my own services. CONECA would probably recommend sending it to me or John Roberts at ANACS, as they tend to concentrate on more modern issues.
     
  18. coloradobryan

    coloradobryan Well-Known Member

    I believe Eddie was referring to the 1919 Merc DDO that was just found not too long ago, not 1916-d.
     
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  19. Rick Stachowski

    Rick Stachowski Motor City Car Capital

    If your going to go to an error expert, send it to vam world . 5 dollars will get the job done, and they are the experts for vams ......
     
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  20. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Ah, that's it. Thanks. :oops:
     
  21. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    Possible new varieties can be sent to Leroy Van Allen. Existing varieties can be attributed by John Baumgart or John Roberts as John @messydesk stated. Coins should not be sent to VAMWorld.

    Chris
     
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