Featured 1861 three cent pc

Are you sure you're not seeing the clashes?

 

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I absolutely see your clashes and believe you have a proof. I just don't know it would be graded as a MS coin is all. Great Coin though

 

There is an 1862/1, so obviously, yes.

 

There is a 1862/1 variety I'm very ware as I have one in my collection.
But there are several experts who have refuted the over date. Even though I own a rather nice example in a au grade I have to believe the evidence pointed out by these experts.
In Breens encyclopedia of US and Colonial coins he refers to this as "an usually. With some sort stages of a die crack from the rim though first star "
There's no medal seen below the base of the 2...or above the top of the 2.
The only medal seen is between the top knob and left base of the 2.
If you investigate this futher you'll realize that if you do an over lay of the 1 and 2 in the date that evidence of the underlying number doesn't support an over date or repunch. There's no remnants of the digit 1.
Or is there any to show where it had or has been cleaned up . Thus the variety is nothing more than the results of two die cracks.
That said it isn't obvious just something that has fallen through some loop holes in varietes.

 

That leads to another problem: that of determining between actual Proof strikes and early Business Strikes from Proof dies. It's problematic, because there will be zero differing die features. Mirrors help; aside Morgans there are few "DMPL" Business Strikes in US coinage (although there are some). But for Proofs known to have more matte surfaces, or fields hidden under color, the decision is almost purely subjective and there's no doubt in my mind that Proof-struck coins exist in Business Strike slabs and vice-versa.[/QUOTE]
A very informative & entertaining thread!
Have been looking at this very question along with wxcoin for an 1883 3CN. Please advise if you will -
In comparing edges as a diagnostic -
Proofs usually have squared edges and mint state examples do not. So if a proof enters circulation and the edges become rounded from use, then this diagnostic is off the table?
I'm not clear about how the edge would change between the last proof strike and the first business strike. Knowing that would establish how to compare any wear signs.
Thanks for any light you can shed on this.

 

I have experience on this matter, but very limited. I have owned 2 circulated proof coins from the 1800's. One was PR58 and the other was PR53. Both still had hard, 90 degree, sharply squared rims, despite slight circulation. The PR53 was a seated liberty dime and still had field reflectivity as well, but the PR58 did not (It may have been over-dipped). Interestingly, it was in an ANACS AU55 holder (business strike), until I crossed it to PCGS for the PR53. Anyway... that's my limited experience with circ proofs.

 

Yes, I would imagine that in those lightly circulated proofs of yours that would be the case. I have not studied the coin production process in enough detail to understand why regular strikes do not have squared edges. Could be as simple as skipping the squaring of the die rims, I suppose.
When proof dies are then used for business strikes, it seems probable that the die edge would not be altered. If this is true, then early business strikes from proof dies would have squared edges. Which is what would allow questionable sellers to pass off a worn proof as a high grade MS.

 

Now this is something I don't know the answer to. I'd be curious to know this as well.

 

Actually, I thought I had read that proofs were manufactured on the medal press, which was a slower, higher force press.

 

I must admit. You are one busy coin collector. I like that in a man

 

Hey. When are you going to have a coin give away. Bet your request to be included would be be in the billions. Aren't you the slight bit curious. Your most interesting

 

Get a A for home work.

 

Burton is correct, the proofs were struck slower and at higher pressure. That allowed the rims to fill completely and form the squared off edge. The higher speed lower pressure of the production striking results in less fill and the edge to rim transition being rounded over.

 

This was coin talk fun reading at its finest. Luv you members. Great info. Thats why we tune in. Hats off to all

 

Nicely put. Thanks for the clear explanation and sewing this all together.

 

Results are in. PCGS XF45. Business strike.

 

Great eye appeal for a 3CS in any case IMO. Should fetch a good price.

 

Perhaps they're right. But I think they make mistakes too.

 

I think it's OK that they are trying to be strict with grading currently. (This piece is better than 45.) However, why would people pay money now to have things graded and many of them lowballed? You are losing on both ends of the transaction. Paying to have a lower value attributed to your coin. Even if this 3 cent nickel is not MS, it's still 53.
For example that other coin (1916-S) that came back 64-BN. That coin is better than 64. And now you are in an area where the difference between 66 and 64 is dramatic. That cent is a 65+ easy.

 

Value between 64 and 65 more than doubles on a 1916-S Lincoln.