Featured 1861 three cent pc

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Paddy54, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Variety Collector

    • Last evening C-D-B posted an 1861 silver 3 cent piece, in the less than $50 thread. it caught my eye for several reasons. First it was hammered so much detail on this little gem. There's more plenty more if I am correct....and If I'm correct this thread will allow members two things #1 see a very cool variety that is extremely rare. And #2 make them aware of other such varties exist, that may be found in other denominations .
    • In 1861 the U.S. Mint minted 1000 proof three cent pieces, and 497,000 mint state coins.* proof dies were also used to strike Mint state coins!
    • Orginally 1000 proof coins were struck and delivered on April 15 with the sets of proof coins. However over 600 were melted as unsold .
    • The records I have state 15 obvs.& 16 Revs. Dies were used in 1861
    • Large dates are counterfeit coins.
    • Now the coin in question.....I believe to be either a proof strike that somehow got into circulation or what is known as an RPD -001 also known as the 1861 Proof repunched date.cross reference : Breen Proof Book #1
    • Description: repunched date 1861/186
    • Repunched date first 1 seen above tbe top and to the right of the
    • repunched 8 seen above the middle and top of the 8.
    • Repunched 6 seen above the middle of the top of the 6.
    • Die markers : Heavy die clashing outline of reverse show around the star. Obv.
    • Heavy die clashing outline the obverse snow inside the C
    • For each of the proof repunched dates,theres is no pricing information. There's no or little premium for the die variety [ if no one knows it exist...Why would there be a premium?] No demand no premium.
    • As only a limited number of proof coins were struck most should show the same variety.
    • In addition the price of a proof coin is already significant.. [400 sets on record] Others destroyed due to slow or no sales.
    • Other markers is to my eye is the 8 the bottom loop on the left side has a bump.
    • The lll die clashes under the lines of the shield. Plainly seen to the eye .
    • I'm thinking a very high R variety, how many of these have survived?
    • This coin is hammered even though it been circulated it still shows plenty of details as well as clues to what it truly maybe....
    Your thoughts?
    downloadfile-29.jpg
    Posted with Johns permission the specimen in question.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
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  3. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Variety Collector

    C-B-D said he sent it in to pcgs this morning. Will it grade Proof or MS?
     
  4. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Well-Known Member

    The residual luster around the devices suggests MS.
     
    352sdeer likes this.
  5. ddddd

    ddddd Member

    I don't know, but will be interested to see what happens.

    My guess is it will be placed in an "XF" circulation strike (non-proof) holder, but I'll be rooting for the proof!

    By the way, @C-B-D did you mark it as a proof on the submission form?
     
    352sdeer likes this.
  6. C-B-D

    C-B-D U.S. Type Coins or death!

    I looked at a dozen proofs on Heritage, but none of them had a RPD. Many did have poorly struck reverse stars, however, primarily on the left side and bottom. But I suppose it doesn't matter since this example likely utilized different dies.
    lf (5).jpeg
     
    quick_change likes this.
  7. C-B-D

    C-B-D U.S. Type Coins or death!

    I did not. Had no clue till Paddy messaged me. It was sent to PCGS this morning.
     
  8. ddddd

    ddddd Member

    I think that might change things. As we saw with the infamous "matte proof" Lincoln episode, what one writes on the form can heavily influence the label. Something makes me doubt that PCGS will look at the markers unless one specifies proof on the form. I'm still hoping that's not the case though!
     
    352sdeer and C-B-D like this.
  9. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Variety Collector

    It will be fun to see how this pans out. All markers are in place to what my references say it is an proof rpd.
    Now is it a genuine proof struck on a proof plachet? Or is it a mint strike from retired proof dies?
    To me that point doesn't really matter as much as the rarity of the specimen. Either way proof or MS off a proof die.....as neither had a huge mintage proof 1000 less est 600 melted or [ X ] amount struck off an retired proof die......again either way the R factor has to be top pop.
    This is a truly rare variety and needs to be recognized due to population.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  10. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Variety Collector

    Again records show 15 obv. & 16 rev. Dies were used in 1861
    That seems somewhat high to me while striking such a small thin coin in a soft medal in a quanity of under 500,000 strikes.
     
    352sdeer and C-B-D like this.
  11. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Variety Collector

    Another question Due to the country engaged in a civil war ,and divided just how many dies of the known 15/16 were made for proof strikes vs mint strikes ?
    Also did the war effort of the union states ,plus the hoarding of silver, and gold coins help reduce the total production and proof sales?
    As a collector and a student of history I would love to find evidence via mint records as to just was the plan of action on the minting of coinage during the conflict.
     
    352sdeer and C-B-D like this.
  12. kSigSteve

    kSigSteve Active Member

    I need a bigger tub of popcorn.

    This is interesting to say the least.
     
    C-B-D likes this.
  13. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Variety Collector

    Anyone got a hankering for some Doublemint gum? :rolleyes: downloadfile-29.jpg 1861-three-cent-silver-type-3.jpg research is so rewarding......;) proof strike 1861 fish scale.

    Did a search of images of 1861 proof 3 cent specimens ,didn't take long to nail the die spot on.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  14. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Variety Collector

    Hold your cards....but I believe we have a bingo! Perfect match.....:cigar:
     
    beef1020 and C-B-D like this.
  15. C-B-D

    C-B-D U.S. Type Coins or death!

    That is an exact match of the die pairs. But is the lower one a business strike?
     
  16. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Variety Collector

    Well one thing we know she's got a twin sister.....now the only question is ....is this a Cinderella story? An ulgy duckling that turns into a swan....?
    Stay tuned folks..... Looney_tunes_careta.png

    Butter pop corn for everyone......:smuggrin: cause that Ain't all folks!
     
    C-B-D likes this.
  17. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Variety Collector

    Now we call out the big guns..... Ed Woods and associate's
     
    IBetASilverDollar, Kentucky and dwhiz like this.
  18. Michael K

    Michael K Well-Known Member

    Be nice, you are talking about my mentor.
    MS-62
     
  19. C-B-D

    C-B-D U.S. Type Coins or death!

    I found this proof with what I think is the RPD. Has the same reverse die as well, I believe. But this one does not have the clashing?
    lf (7).jpeg lf (8).jpeg
     
    spirityoda likes this.
  20. Michael K

    Michael K Well-Known Member

    I like this series, an over looked and under valued gem.
    If you did not state proof on the submission, will they know/ be able to designate it as such if it is? And, will they know if it is a business strike that was used with proof dies? It may have been worth mentioning these things on the submission. Perhaps an e mail, will beat the mailman to their door.
     
    Paddy54 likes this.
  21. C-B-D

    C-B-D U.S. Type Coins or death!

    I doubt they'll catch it, but they may. It wasn't on the form. I can send them an email or call them, but customer service is not worth a darn there. I've called and written about various other orders before and they just didn't hear me.
     
    Michael K likes this.
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