Featured 1861 three cent pc

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Paddy54, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Variety Collector

    2017-12-06-19-38-59-.jpg who told you to find the one without clashes? Did I tell you to find a clashless 61? :)
     
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  3. kSigSteve

    kSigSteve Active Member

    Incredible work my friend.
     
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  4. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    If there is a question that Proof dies were used for Business Strikes, they won't be designating this one as a circulated Proof.
     
  5. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Variety Collector

    There's is no question retired dies were used to mint, mint state coins ,there's a record that they were.
    So if what you're saying is correct....then it would only be given an MS designation.
    At least we do have proof of a proof die marrage to an MS mintage. Plus a variety too.
    Which to me in fact is still a huge find since they are such a perfect match.
    And again opening a door for other series to have the same sort of situation going on where retired dies on low mintages placed back in service to hammer out mint state coins for commerce.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
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  6. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    I think it is an amazing bit of research by @Paddy54. Very impressive and super interesting. Hats off to you, for seeing it and pursuing it.
     
  7. Michael K

    Michael K Well-Known Member

    Well this is tricky:

    No. If that is the case, of course it is not a proof coin. But will they label it that proof dies were used?
     
  8. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    No. Well, at least, I've never seen a coin labeled as such before. ANACS is the only TPG that may do that.
     
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  9. Michael K

    Michael K Well-Known Member

    If proof dies were used on some business strikes, if they don't authenticate it,
    then you can only know by the appearance of the coin/ and your own knowledge.
     
  10. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    Which is what being a numismatist is all about.
     
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  11. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    Nope. That's "die poop" level frippery; Proof dies were repurposed for Business Strikes with great regularity in US coinage and it's difficult to imagine a justification for that status being some sort of "standout" feature when it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a couple hundred thousand examples just like it.

    That leads to another problem: that of determining between actual Proof strikes and early Business Strikes from Proof dies. It's problematic, because there will be zero differing die features. Mirrors help; aside Morgans there are few "DMPL" Business Strikes in US coinage (although there are some). But for Proofs known to have more matte surfaces, or fields hidden under color, the decision is almost purely subjective and there's no doubt in my mind that Proof-struck coins exist in Business Strike slabs and vice-versa.
     
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  12. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Variety Collector

    The sole purpose of this thread is "Awareness "
    For all members here ,and collectors everywhere.
    To realize that there are anomalies in our hobby both known and unknown.
    One must realize that the makers of these disc that we so prize had no idea that decades, centuries, after they left a mark on these disc would be of more value then face.
    No idea that any mistakes made by accident or deliberately done make for such a prize to find.
    To all collectors young and old alike.... the answers are there when you find something different. Research is your friend...Sometimes the answers come easy sometimes not.
    Sometimes they are a mouse click away, others days digging in books.
    This hobby offers so much more then filling holes in an album. It affords you the knowledge of so many things, math , science,history.
    All shared by others ,or self taught because ...."You" wish to find out the reason ,or the reason's why?
    Enjoy the ride......
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
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  13. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Variety Collector

    Dave I agree with about 98% of the above however in this case we are talking under a total of 500,000 coins minted combined 498,000 to be exact divided by 16 known die pairs leaves an average total of 31,125 +/- depending on which die pair was used and the real number of strikes it was used. Factor in the survivel rate on a coin this small.
    Again the purpose of this thread is Awareness and education as to the possibilities .
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
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  14. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    Oh, I understand; I was speaking more of generalities than known issue-specific data. The point being, a coin struck by a former Proof die is no more or less common than that struck by any other die, and it's my considered opinion that such a provenance shouldn't be construed to add value to the coin.

    Then again, there are untold thousands of 1909-S VDB's kicking around, and that hasn't stopped them from becoming expensive indeed. :)
     
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  15. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Variety Collector

    And yes Dave you are correct... that's why I always say it more to coin collecting than filling holes.... some may truly enjoy filling an album.... but some of us just take it up a notch or two.
     
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  16. dwhiz

    dwhiz Collector Supporter

    Well anyway it's a darn nice 3CS
     
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  17. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Their values are decreasing and returning to reality.
     
  18. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    If a die state/stage develops after it's use as a proof while being used as a business strike, then it would be possible to make a distinction based on die state/stage alone. That would only leave a question on the die state/stage when it's use changed.
     
  19. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Then you have the question were all 16 die pairs used, or just made? They often made dies that were never used just to make sure they had dies on hand if they needed them.
     
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  20. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Variety Collector

    Just the point that proof dies were used to mint this date , your statement isn't to hard to believe. There very well could of been dies never used in 61 but reworked for other years.
     
  21. kkathyl0

    kkathyl0 Active Member

    I see too much rounding and scratches that could suggest improper cleaning, still a nice coin.
     
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