New ASE Design

I looked at US Mint's website this morning and checked the historic sales of the ASE. The number of ASE's sold each year has significantly jumped over the last 10 years with a bit of a slip in 2012 over the 2011 sales. This series is still hugely popular and I personally love the design of these coins but have thought that the mint should offer a coin, along side the normal design, that has the normal ASE obverse and a different reverse design. I know I would certainly purchase a new design in addition to picking up the normal ASE. Any thoughts, ideas or criticisms of this idea?

Evan

 

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I don't see sales increases as indicators of popularity as much as indicator of SILVER popularity.

What has proof mintages done? Those are more indicative of popularity with collectors.

I agree, though, that the design either should be changed or another alternative offered.

 

I like the present design and suspect that a new design will be inferior, but there is always the chance that they might come up with something good. It probably comes down to the Mint's sales goals. Do they really want to sell more 1 ounce silver coins? Can they meet the increased demand that would come from a popular alternative to the ASE?

 

I suspect it would be inferior as well unless they stole another design from the past.

 

I wouldn't be opposed to a standard design on the obverse and perhaps a changing design on the reverse, like what they do on the platinum coins - a rotation of designs around a theme - maybe old coin designs? It would be nice to liven up the series....

 

I have no problem if they just keep stamping out the same design for the bullion coins forever (they're purpose is for stacking anyways).

 

I just have a HUGE problem with them reusing old designs, especially on differently sized coins.

One, the artist created his artistic vision and design for a certain size. Who are we to change that vision? Should we freely add a cow or change the dimensions to American Gothic or a Picasso? Should committees be free to change any artwork they feel like it once the artist is dead and can no longer object?

Two, what about the value being destroyed to the owners of the originals? The $20 St Gaudens coins used to carry much higher premiums, but once the treasury reused the design, (changing lady liberty to be skinnier btw), the values on those coins went down. Same with WL half owners. A nice BU example of this coin used to carry higher premiums, but since a collector cheaply can now get an oversized version in high grade, the owners of WL halves have been hurt.

What next? What series of coins should the US mint attack?

Those are my issues with it. To me, it should be banned from using old imagery and we should simply DEMAND artistic excellence from our current artists, or do what Teddy did and bring in TALENTED artists to design our coinage.

Chris

 

I think you've misread trend entirely: http://www.cointalk.com/t219973/
Please see the WSJ article by Matt Day 1/3/2013 "U.S. Mint Gold-Coin Sales Fell 25% in 2012" : http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323874204578219421777432536.html

Please note why PCGS scaled back its grading service; YoY, coin submissions FELL -28%; huge decline in moderns. This is part of the same trend: http://www.cointalk.com/t217595/#post1575146

11/8/2012 10-Q Qtrly Statement for CLCT : "In addition, our coin grading and authentication revenues are impacted by the level of modern coin submissions, which can be volatile, primarily depending on the timing and size of modern coin marketing programs by the United States Mint and by customers or dealers who specialize in sales of such coins. {...} Our modern coin grading and authentication fees decreased by approximately $1,040,000 or 40% in the first quarter, compared to the same quarter of the prior year. {...} We believe the decline in coin authentication and grading fees reflects stagnating gold and silver prices over the last year which, in conjunction with the overall stabilization of the economy, has made investing in gold and silver less attractive, as evidenced by continued lower sales of Silver and Gold Eagles by the US Mint, both for the three and nine months ended September 30, 2012, compared to the prior year periods. Furthermore, we believe the reduction in our revenues reflects a general market decline in the overall coin authentication and grading market, rather than a loss of market share." As Robert Deutcher said in the conference call: "With the exception of vintage and world coins, the level of coins submitted to us for grading are mostly in the modern categories, are highly dependent on the price of gold, silver and platinum and the output from the mints such as the U.S. mint and of course public demand for those coin. {...} As reported last quarter and now again this quarter, we are seeing that lower level of submissions for grading in the modern coin sub-segment and it has lowered our reported total coin service revenue, which is down about 19% year over year. This is the most volatile part of our business and it will remain that way for the foreseeable future. {...}

 

I don't know anything about the value, current or historical, of Double Eagles, but I find it hard to believe that that is the only reason for the decline.

 

I cannot prove it other than note the premiums over bullion for common St Gaudens has declined. It makes sense to me, since everyone used to look at St Gaudens at coin show and drool, and now I am just sick of them since they are struck every year by the hundreds of thousands, if not millions. I still love the reverse on the "real" St Gaudens. Much better than the ugly one on the reverse of AGE.

Why do you think the treasury uses these designs? Because people wish to own such beautiful designs. What do you think this lack of demand for the old designs has to do to premiums?

You are right though sir, I cannot prove it save for noting of declining premiums and thinking about it in economics terms.

 

I am not a huge fan of the current eagle design, however I don't think they should change it. Recognizeability is the best thing the SAE has going for it. Changing only one side of it could work...

I would agree the US Mint is in sore need of branching out to some new designs. RCM and Perth are running circles around them.

 

Like InfleXion, I hope they keep the ASE going.
Yet they should expand the one oz silver bullion option.

Use something like this with an iconic image of a turkey on the reverse.
I'd buy.
JMO

 

ASE's sales have been going steadily up for the last 10 years with only a couple bumps in the road.

In the 80's and 90's every years sales were below 10 million, the first year to break 10 million was 2002, 2011 was the record with nearly 40 million in sales, last year had over 33 milllion.

That isn't even taking into account that an ASE only cost $5-6 during the 80s and 90's while now its 30+, the amount of dollars being spent on ASE's has had a huge rise in the last few years.

 

But the bullion value has greatly increased and historically whenever bullion values run up, especially if they run up quickly, the numismatic premium over bullion decreases and sometimes disappears completely (Hence the reason why bags of BU Morgans were being sent to the smelters in 79/80. If you had a glut of BU dollars that you couldn't sell to collectors for $10 each a few months ago, you definitely couldn't sell them to collectors for $35 to $40 today, but the smelter would pay $30 to $35 for coins that you had been unable to sell for $10. So off they went.)

 

The only caution is that I would mention is not becoming like the perth mint, too many option can also be a bad thing.

 

They could change the back. It's not nearly as cool as the walking liberty on the front. Maybe use the walking eagle from the back of the coin as well?

 

I understand sir, but even relative premiums have changed. It used to be St Gaudens were $50 or more expensive than liberty heads. Now the premiums are the same. That tells me the extra demand for the beautiful design has been taken away because you can get it in an AGE.

 

Not unless you could bring John Mercanti out of retirement. Talk about a sculptor/designer, the man was just amazing. No other person in the capacity at the mint has created more worthy designs than he. Just a personal opine.....

 

Since they sell the ASE like water in a desert, maybe they'd be better served to make the commems in .999.

 

I like the ASE but I don't think it's necessary to issue the exact same design over and over. I know it's a little different every year but who the heck can tell? I've always felt like they should have just minted a one ounce Walking Liberty Half Dollar into an ASE and use the old reverse. Mexico and all the other countries get creative with their silver why shouldn't the US? Is our US Mint that snobish? Another thing is when is the US Mint gonna allow another error like the 2008 with a 2007 reverse? :yes: I'll tell ya' what, if I was operating the minting press I would create so many errors I'd be in trouble forever.