On another thread, a poster basically asked what was a certain Matte Proof Lincoln cent that he was interested in worth. The thread eventually turned into a strong discussion/debate on whether a coin is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. There are a lot of quality opinions on both sides of this argument which you can read here: http://www.cointalk.com/forum/t56247-4/#post635779 However, I thought I'd start a separate thread relating to discussions and opinions specifically on the value of Matte Proof Lincolns. Let me start by highly recommending the newly published book "Lincoln Cent Matte Proofs" by Kevin Flynn. It is the most informative and comprehensive book I have seen on Matte Proof Lincoln cents and anyone interested in MPL's should get this book and read every page. First, here are the mintage struck figures for MPLs: 1909 vdb - 1,194* 1909 - 2,618 1910 - 4,083 1911 - 2,411 1912 - 2,372 1913 - 2,983 1914 - 1,365 1915 - 1,150 1916 - 600* *As most know, even though the 1916 shows a much lower mintage than the 1909 vdb, for various reasons the 1909 vdb is considered the most rare with the lowest survival rate of all the MPL's, thereby making its value or sales figures much higher than any other MPL. These mintages are pretty amazingly low, don't you think? You can see how truly rare MPL's are, and I don't think these low mintage figures are common knowledge among the general coin public, so MPL's have gone under-appreciated for quite a while. Another reason for their lack of popularity is their "matte-ness," if you will. They have such a granular surface instead of the mirror-like finish generally associated with proofs that many people simply don't like them. It has been only in the last few years that MPL's have gained in popularity, and I'm guessing the PCGS registry system has had something to do with their increasing popularity. In any event, here's what I'm curious about - what are they worth to you as a collector? What criteria do you mostly use to base your value of these coins - mintage, past auction figures, eye appeal, toning, redness, grade, what holder it's in, surface quality, etc.? Most would say, all of the above, but what is the most important guage you personally use or would use in buying an MPL? For me, eye appeal is the foremost attribute I use in judging most any coin, but especially an MPL, for purchase, both as a collector and as a dealer. Below is my 1916 MPL (PCGS PF65 BN) which has everything I personally look for in a coin, but most of all it has great eye appeal to me. Even though it is a brown coin, it has very pretty underlying colors and a super crisp flawless surface. If you've seen many of the other coins I collect, you will usually see that my coins have eye appealing toning. Most of you know I sell MPL's, and I'm truly not trying to sell you one of my MPL's - I'm just trying to get a discussion going, based on the prior thread, on what you all think about these rare Lincolns.
I like the MPLs because of their rarity and their eye appeal, which includes the color and toning. That's pretty much how I value how much they are worth to me. Sure, the prices of these have gone up a ton in just a few years, but the same can be said for many series. Just goes back to supply and demand of course, lots of folks want MPLs with stunning eye appeal and there just isn't many of them out there. Also, I've read in other sources that the mintage on the '09 VDB was only 420, but that the higher number is the one most of the source documents refer to. Though the graded population of the VDB seems to better support the lower figure. Some would think I paid alot for this one that I have that I got from Andy, but I think I got a bargain. :thumb:
While they are certainly rare compared to the business struck Lincolns, I think they are not even close to "rare" in the numismatic use of the term. They have a high survival rate, and you can find multiple examples at any show and the majority of auctions. That said, I think they are very cool coins, and I would love to own one. In fact, there was a time when I was actively seeking adding an example to my collection. However, what I learned through some investigation including talking to collectors and coin doctors is that the vast majority have been messed with -- and that's the dirty little secret of MPLs that nobody cares to (publicly) admit. If anyone would like to understand better what I'm saying, please take a look at the following thread, where I peed in the MPL cereal bowl, so to speak.... http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=30&threadid=721505&highlight_key=y&keyword1=MPL
The diatribe in my previous post notwithstanding, to answer your question directly... I look for (and value coins by) originality and eye appeal.
Mike, that is one amazing MPL, I really like the colors - it has fantastic eye appeal. Good going on that purchase!
I don't own a MPL, but might buy one in the future, after I buy my proof indian cent. The MPL's are cool coins, and I guess I would say the factor in buying one, for me would definitely be the color/toning/eye appeal and the grade/designation to go along with it. I mean the past auction prices are important as well, I don't want to OVER-pay. Really, I don't think that there is a difference between me buying any other coin and a lincoln MPL, other than I might look for different things, because "duh" the designs or different, but also because grade/eye appeal/past auction prices all should be factors in buying any coin. I really like these MPL's, and some of them tone wonderfully, and I thank you and Mike for sharing yours
Hi guys , When sorting through penny's , i usually get one that's listed as Matte Proof . Are you actually able to feel the difference between a regular finish and a Matte finish ? I just sort of set them aside until i figure that i am able to tell the difference . :hug:
The title of this thread cannot be answered. It all depends on the coin. And yes, the Flynn MPL book is a must, I have read mine thru and keep going back to study different dates and areas of the book.
MPL's really used to be great values before the recent run up in prices. I bought, and sold, all of the MPL's I've owned before the price run up. Stupid me, story of my life with most of my coins. :crying: You need to be much more selective now to buy the right coin at the right price. Quite a few have been messed with even in top TPG holders. Use an expert if you're not one before purchase. MPL's I've owned:
Wow, Lee, wish I would have been buying MPL's when you were selling! Very nice coins indeed - thanks for posting them. And I agree with AJ, it is really hard to put a value on individual MPL's, each one is so different, and each one has its own special qualities.
Kevin put a lot of work into the Matte Proof book in an attempt to give collectors a one-stop source for information on these Lincoln cents. The cent and nickel cost a total of 8-cents +4-cents postage. They were not popular with collectors because they looked too much like high quality production coins. Some contemporary collectors put them away by the hundreds, others got none. (See Renaissance of American Coinage 1909-1915 for the story of collector Giles Anderson and his quest for a 1909 VDB proof from the mint.)
