Matte Proof Lincoln question

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GDJMSP, You keep doing what you're doing, brother. You don't mince words, and you're not afraid to voice your opinion -- even when it is not the popular thing to do. I respect that a great deal....Mike

 

I'd add that these indictments sounding in censorship are ill-conceived to put it modestly but then I don't want to offend anybody so I won't add that.

 

:headbang:

Doug, I don't think anyone here said you were a bad guy at all, as a matter of fact, I heard you're a heck of a nice guy, and very smart - you definitely know the coin industry. I believe we even met briefly in person a couple years ago at a coin show, and I'm looking forward to meeting and talking with you again sometime soon, perhaps at the ANA next month.

However, the way a person writes doesn't necessarily allow people to see the true person behind the writing. I like and appreciate straight forward people like you, I really do. I get along better with people who say what they think/feel. Because I'm that way too. However, during my 35 years of legal background, I have learned I can say and write my opinions and thoughts even more effectively if I am less confrontational and use more tact - I haven't changed who I am or how I think whatsoever (just ask my husband!), but I don't offend people as much, and they tend to not only listen but actually HEAR what I'm saying. Hopefully, you've not only listened, but have HEARD the comments here, and that's all we can ask.

 

I'm really glad Penny Lady started the other thread on Matte Proofs recently because I don't even recognize this thread anymore :computer:

 

Yeah, no kidding. What the heck did I START???

 

I have gone into the trenches for GD and will continue to do so. Change nothing. In this particular thread, it seems that we are not debating the value or market of the OP's topic anymore, but ran off on a tangent.

BUT, I will try to play devils advocate here.

I just ripped a toner off the bay for $30 or so. Here is the auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120442463494&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&salenotsupported

Does this now drop all the prices for these monster mint set Lincolns??
Nope. Some fall thru the cracks, as well as some on the other side.

My main point is, price guides are just that , a guide, and a starting referance point.

Most serious collectors know that many told Eliasburg that he was crazy paying moon money for many of his coins, but, look at the results. He got that moon money back exponentially.

Anomolys ( spelling? ) aside, most primos go for primo, sometimes you just have to reach out and throw the sheet away. Sometimes.

Look at my photo album, there is a 1909-P Lincoln in 66RB, a PCGS Truview. I was called a fool for paying so much, but laughed all the way to the bank, and my buyer has been offered a profit to sell it as well.

I think the bidiots on Ebay skew things at times, as does someone like Jack Lee ( The Statue of Liberty bidder, standing with paddle held high no matter what ) also skew prices. ( I'll need a flame suit for that comment)

Am I rambling? maybe, but I can see both sides of this debate pretty clearly.

GD is not an enforcer, but a contributor, and I am sure he can do without the controversy. He does this for free gang, and for the love of the hobby, no ego, nothing more than that.

Bottom line is this. A coin is what it is worth based on KNOWLEDGABLE BUYERS, not what a guide says or what an auction result may be or what it suggests it should be.

Those who doubt this should go back and look at Teletrade results on 1909-S Indians cents. Same day of auction, same date coin, same PCGS holder and same PCGS grade....2 coins, " the same " ....you'd be suprised.

 

That pretty much sums it up for me, too. If I might add, it takes a little time to get a cut of a person's true character and jib on these things. These indictments were a little premature, let's just say. We let it go at that.

Oh hell, I'll agree with this, too. A RW&A Buyer and a RW&A Seller does not always equate to FMV if either one or both of these are just, well, plum ignernt.

 

My feelings too, he's trying to help and offer his opinion. Really, there's no reason to be intimidated because he's a moderator. I'm a moderator on a pretty big stock forum, I respond to nearly every post....as an investor, not a moderator. When he states something, it's his opinion and not necessarily fact or the bottomline. Take it or leave it, it's just opinion and experience speaking.

 

Personally I think the price of matte proofs are at peak level due to 100th anniversary of Lincoln cents. Prices are now 5? times more expensive than 10 years ago. I kind of agree with GD if people buy at $2000 and up for these, in the future they might not be able to sell at that price.

It maybe comparing apples to oranges, but Indian cent proofs have similar mintage to matte Lincolns, but it's still affordable, after reading thread about Matte proofs I bought 2 Indian proofs RB65's for less than $400 each. Previously I don't own any Indian or matte proofs, but might consider a matte proof when the price is more reasonable.

 

1 - Doug,, bravo ! The comment re.-admin title, etc.. is laughable. Generally I read and try to keep my mouth shut, but felt that liberals were overrunning the site and felt the need to cowboy up next to you and poke them in thier eye... heck boys, ya'll want me to get ya some tissue ? 1 ply or 2 ?.... I'm you want it scented too. If anyone is so thin skinned, newbee or not, that a title under a name in a benign forum intimidates them... OMG sleeping beauty !,,,, enough said on this topic.

2 - Penny Lady is correct, a coin is worth what someone will pay for it... and suckers abound, ask PT Barnum or the numerous power sellers on ebay.

3 - Doug is more reasonably correct from an analytical point of view. If sucker is defined as someone who overpays signficantly for a coin with repect to what the general median value for a such a coin within the same grade and roughly same eye appeal, etc... (I've done it too).... then anyone who pays such a premium is not paying what the coin can reasonably be expected to be worth, and is essentially making a fiscially poor purchase,,, although it may still make them (and the seller), happy.

Same thing happened in housing folks,,,, the market could only stand so many $300,000 homes and $500,000 condo's on the beach... did some folks buy them at that price, and where they happy with it, and were the homes and condo's worth it,,,, yes. Yes they were.
However, those same homes and condos are now readily available at 50-70% discounts,, I know,,, I've been watching ; )

 

Remember, it takes TWO people at least to get a price up, the second bidder is just one increment less.

 

Big difference w/ MPLs though is that there is a fixed quantity that is very very low to begin with. A major factor in the housing bubble bursting is that so many new homes/condos were built during the run up, and there's still tons of open space to build even more in the future! The number of MPLs out there can only go down and demand will likely go up as the population of coin collectors increases.

 

You know I was sad to see this thread get so off course and was feeling badly that it had seemed to turn into a Doug-bashing party at times, but that was noone's intent, IMHO. A few merely suggested ways to soften Doug a bit around the edges, and you're right, it's not for us to say, to judge, or to suggest.

bahabully: I think it's generally better to be thought a fool than to say something and eliminate the doubt, but liberals??? are you serious???!?


Do you feel the need to label someone so badly that you just slap a tag on them that is unappealing to you? Liberals??? Cowboy up next to someone else, and keep your political paranoia to yourself.

anyway...

Although I have had my share of disagreements with Doug, I think he's a great guy who has his heart in exactly the right place, even if his manner is bristly. My concern was with the number of people who move on to other forums from here simply because they think that the administration is overbearing.

Many people have come and go over the years I have been a member of this forum and many of them good people. Usually they left after disagreements with the staff here. I am concerned that when I look at people's member since date, that they are rare to be over 2 years old. At times I have felt disenfranchised and ignored and I am relatively certain that if I have, then others have too. Unlike many of them I have remained because I like this forum, and I would like to see this forum flourish and thrive.

Doug, please forgive me and Charmy if we came off as Doug-bashing. It was not our intention. We were sincerely being constructive.

baha: go ride to someone else's rescue, because Doug doesn't need it.

 

I too am very sorry this thread got off course and absolutely was not Doug-bashing, just suggesting Doug-softening as Mike said, but I/we said my/our piece on that, and Doug said his, so I think that is all that needs to be said.

Labels such as this are unnecessary, uncalled for, and inappropriate.

Mike says this very well, and I completely agree - however it came across, I was trying to be constructive, not critical - again, enough said.

I also agree with Illini that the analogy with MPL's being compared to the housing market is completely disconnected. There will never be more MPL's, only less. They were made for such a short period of time (1909-1916), in such a unique manner (matte surface), and are so amazingly detailed for any proof (every hair and curl and dimple stand out like they were 3-D) that, to me, they are gems to be treasured and revered.

 

420 - Good point. Demand is relative to supply, availability of credit, marketing, and numerous other factors. Maybe I should have used "Land" vs. homes/condos,, we've all heard that 'they ain't making any more it' used to describe land as an investment.. and it's also followed the home/condo pricing trend.....
Anyway, the point was that something purchased by 2, or 2000 people, today at a 20-200% premium to the short term median of historical purchase prices does not really make that item "worth" that. I always try to keep a holistic view of investments and significant purchases,,, where cyclical bubbles driven by overmarketing, easy credit, etc.. all can create 'hold em''/'sell em" positions for me.. now if a bunch of folks want to start paying $3000-$15000 for the be-dazziling MLP's out there in the market,, then put me in the hold/sell catagory... and I'll wait for the bubble to pop before I jump back in (if it ever does).

Mike - <fell out of my chair,,, haha.> outstanding comment.... I was hoping to solicit your sharp edge... as I enjoy reading you as much as anyone in the forum,, epecially when you've been rubbed.... good stuff.
btw, I wasn't calling anyone 'tags',, just saying ya'll were acting like em'.

Back to Point again - Ya'll ever see the "Gem Mining" stores they have out in the Smokey mountains,,, where you can bring your kids in and buy a $50 bucket of dirt with some quartz and other "precious" stones in it, then pan the stones out of the dirt... My kids love it and I enjoy the activity and time spending with them washing dirt off rocks. Both dirt and rocks were made in limited supply by the most distinguished mint ever known to man,, I wonder what that bag of dirt and rocks is really worth ,, or for that matter what the owner of the mint would have me pay for them ?

 

Don't you think you're being a little forward on such short acquaintance? You're compromising him.

 

In another post, 2 people are buying 1908-s indian cents in circulated conditions for the past couple of months, they are already driving up the price of that coin all by themselves, if everybody on the forum buy a matte proof, I am sure the price will hit $5000 soon. Some of the dealers can easily drive up the price of these if they keep on buying.

2 years ago I was trying to buy Isabella quarter at MS64, couldn't get one I like for under $1000, now there are no taker for $700. It's not that rare so I might as well wait some more. A lot of my coins have fallen in value very fast. Now I am trying to buy some where values have fallen a lot such as columbian MS66s, who knows I might be stuck with them. So I suggest people to be careful on what they buy.

 

Don't change a thing Doug.
I wish to add one other thought and it's not about anyone in this thread.
There are some that post on other forums that say they have a problem with Doug.
Some of these folks just couldn't handle the truth when they got an honest answer.
Just my opinion.

 

So what's your opinion on the rest of the folks that said that? :goofer:

Really, talk about prolonging the misery and putting a guy on the defensive and making him feel self-conscious. Don't you think everybody said enough on this really meaningful and illuminating collateral subject? :hammer:

On the real issue, every coin is negotiable. It's not like you're walking into a supermarket. And these MPLs are under-appreciated, both by the TPGs, and in the price guides, IMO.