So wait.. AU58 > Ms 60/62?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by BNB Analytics, Nov 2, 2009.

  1. BNB Analytics

    BNB Analytics New Member

    I was speaking to my good friend Illini420(Mike) the other day on the phone about this..

    He told me that AU58's can be more lustrous and shiny than MS60/61/62's.

    That's weird! I always thought the higher the grade, the better the chance the coin looks better and better.

    I guess not. Can someone explain this interesting phenomena?
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  3. kanga

    kanga 55 Year Collector

    Coins in the MS-60/-62 range have some sort of problem that is generally not desireable. That's why they are graded that low.
    Luster is one of the things that often suffers.

    But AU-58 coins may have nothing more than a slight rub on the high points.
    Without that rub they might have been -63, -64 or -65.
    So many of the qualities of a Choice or Gem coin are there.

    I personally skip the MS-60/-62 range if at all possible.
    That doesn't mean I don't have any, but in the future they are candidates for upgrading.
  4. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

  5. silvrluvr

    silvrluvr Senior Member

    I agree with Kanga. An MS-60 coin be pretty well beat up, but it's still uncirculated. An AU-58 coin is usually pretty nice with just a hint of wear. I'll take a nice AU-58 coin over a beat up MS-60 every time, although I'm not up on the price differences.
  6. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    One of the prime reasons uncirculated coins are graded MS60 is bagginess.

    Here's one way to think about it - an MS60 is (supposedly) the worst mint state coin one can find, while an AU58 is the best circulated coin one can find.

    A lot of bad things can happen to a coin other than the first hint of rub, and many of things has happened to an MS60 coin.

    So illini420 is certainly right, but go farther - go beyond just "lustrous and shiny" to look at other elements of a coin's grade, notably surface preservation and strike. And yes, an AU58 coin is often more desirable than an MS60 coin.
  7. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    Lehigh's notion of AU64 makes a great deal of sense. In fact, I see no reason why one would stop at 64 for an AU coin.
  8. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    In a recent Heritage auction, I was looking closely at Capped Bust quarters. There were several 1819 Large 9 (Browning-2) 25c in grades ranging from XF45 to AU55. Same exact variety.

    The best coin was the lowest numerical grade. It sold for $2760; other AU coins failed to cover reserves less than $2760. The lowest numerical grade brought the highest bids for good reason - it was the most desirable coin. Some knowledgeable buyer paid well over typical prices for an exceptional coin. I'm sure he's quite pleased (it could have been me, but I was outbid :mad:).
  9. BNB Analytics

    BNB Analytics New Member

    So I guess that there is a better chance of seeing an AU58 sell for more of a premium than an MS60/62 graded coin?
  10. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    Be careful with absolute statements.

    The name of this thread is "So wait.. AU58 > Ms 60/62?". A better statement is AU58 is sometimes better than MS60/62.

    And, of course, the term "better" is subjective !
  11. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    If, by premium, you mean a higher price, then the answer is no. MS62s usually sell for more than AU58.

    Also... don't lump MS60 in the same group as MS62. There are some very nice coins graded 62.
  12. mill rat41

    mill rat41 Member

    Some one once described it like this, " an AU58 is an MS 64 or 65 with just a HINT of rub".
  13. mark_h

    mark_h Numismatist

    There is always that possibility, just depends on the coin. Peronally I don't like the term AU64, but I do understand the concept and can not think of a better term. But I do agree some of the AU58 coins are spectacular.
  14. illini420

    illini420 1909 Collector

    But remember not all AU58s are equal!!! Some of them will look like "AU64" coins and will command a big premium if the right bidders see them available. But others will look more like a circulated coin of a lower grade. Third party grading of AU58 coins encompasses a huge range of eye appeal for most coins based on what I've seen.

    Since I know you're a member over there too, there was a decent thread about not all AU58s are alike posted over on the CU forum not too long ago:

    http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=726304
  15. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    Consider substituting "should be" for "is" :D
  16. Mark Feld

    Mark Feld Rare coin dealer

    I sold the AU58 1853 Arrows & Rays Half Dollar below, recently, and I think it serves as a good example of what's being discussed. It has a bit of rub on it, but nice luster and essentially mark-free surfaces, as well as pleasing, light patina. I see a lot of Arrows & Rays Half Dollars, including those graded MS65 and higher, but this one is more appealing to me than many of them.

    [​IMG]
  17. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    Right-o.

    Sometimes, I think the TPGs allow some coins to to jump the Great Divide between circ and uncirc - high-end AU coins are market graded MS61; bangy, baggy low-end MS coins are market graded AU58. In particular, I have seen this on Indian gold $2.5s and $5s.
  18. BNB Analytics

    BNB Analytics New Member

    Oh I know!! I wasn't born yesterday lol..

    I've gone through plenty of bad example AU 58's as well.
  19. boxerchip

    boxerchip Runnin' Buffalo

    GREAT thread, quite educational... never thought about grades that way.
  20. LostDutchman

    LostDutchman Moderator Moderator

    I agree not all AU58's are the same.... I have seen some horrendous looking coins in AU58 holders. If a coin has been graded a 58 there is a reason... it could be a light rub like Marks coin (beauty by the way) or I have seen Unc. coins that IMHO have been cleaned and then retoned back to market acceptable graded as 58's as well. You must learn to tell why coins have been graded how they have been graded before your going to be able to find the good stuff.
  21. BNB Analytics

    BNB Analytics New Member

    Yeah I hear you.

    Everyone's way of finding the good stuff varies, though.

    For me, I like to find luster and shine. All natural of course :)
    So, I could sacrifice a few rubs with an au58 knowing that I'll pay more than likely thousands less on a key date.

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