The secret to collecting key dates (The elusive AU64 slider)

Lehigh96 · 09-23-2008, 01:18 AM

Most coin collectors have real problems when it comes to the key date/s of the series they are collecting. Perhaps the Washington Quarter collector is building a set of gem state coins, but he can't afford that 1932-D or 1932-S in MS63 much less MS65. Most collectors settle for a well circulated example just to fill the slot. There is no doubt that it is a dilemna. My solution is to be patient and look for an opportunity to obtain a high quality and eye appealing coin at a much lower price than the MS counterpart. AU coins are very tricky, especially the AU58. They are not all created equal. They key to obtaining those key dates is to look for the rare AU64. The AU64 is a slider that if the wear was not present would grade either MS64 or MS65.

These coins do not appear on the market very often, and when they do, you must be prepared. You have to be willing to pay a significant premium to obtain one of these coins and realize that you are still getting a good deal regardless of what the price guide says. Look at it this way. If you had an MS65 and added a few surface marks to it, the grade drops one or two points and the eye appeal and price drops accordingly. If you have an MS65 and you rub it and create wear, it drops 6 points and the price plummets even though the eye appeal of the coin in question really doesn't suffer to that extent.

Ok, lets look at some visual examples of what I am talking about. I will compare a few coins and the relative values involved. Lets start with the Peace Dollar series. It is a short series and relatively easy to complete in Mint State with the exception of the key dates: 1921, 1924-S, 1928, & 1934-S. IMO, Peace Dollars are not very attractive under MS63 grade, but all four of these coins are rather pricey in MS63+. What to do? Look for the AU64. Here is an example of an AU64 1928 Peace Dollar. I have placed it next to an MS63 1928 Peace Dollar for comparisons sake.

The AU64 example has clean surfaces, a solid strike, pleasing luster with some breaks due to wear, and is extremely attractive for a circulated Peace Dollar. This coin sold for $488 at auction which is $58 above wholesale which equates to a 13% premium. The MS63 coin has some major marks right in the focal area of Miss Liberty's cheek, another solid strike, and blazing luster and eye appeal for an MS63. This coin sold for $722. So here is the question, is the coin on the right worth $234 more than the coin on the left? Maybe, maybe not. But for the collector who can't afford to make $700 purchases on a regular basis, the AU64 example clearly provides a better value.

One more example. Since I started talking about Washington Quarters, lets take a quick look at some 1932-D Washingtons. Please excuse the photos, they are from Heritage, but should adequately demonstrate my point.

In this instance, I would argue that the slider is actually more attractive than the MS63 example. The AU58 sold for $863, which is $103 above wholesale which again equates to a 13% premium. However, when you compare the price of the AU58 at $863 to the $2,530 price tag of the MS63, it is a little hard to swallow paying $1,667 more for a coin that is not even as attractive.

What coins we collect really depends upon our personal preferences and our budgets. IMHO, the AU64 slider is one of the best values in numismatics with relation key date coins. For everyone in search of a key date coin, keep your eyes open for the elusive AU64 slider.

Arizona Jack · 09-23-2008, 01:24 AM

It happens with Lincolns as well, primo 55-58's are very popular !!!

Great thread.

**GDJMSP** · 09-23-2008, 01:48 AM

I agree, one of your best

HazardJoe · 09-23-2008, 02:06 AM

This is the best post ive read since i joined. We need more real info like this. Much props!

Lehigh96 · 09-23-2008, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HazardJoe

This is the best post ive read since i joined. We need more real info like this. Much props!

Thanks guys and don't forget to nominate your favorite thread this week.

BTW, I forgot to mention one thing. Many of the AU64 sliders are very difficult to even diagnose as AU coins. If the coin was raw, or the grade on the slab was covered, most collectors would mistake the coin for a uncirculated example. Even the most astute members of this forum would be fooled from time to time, with the exception of GD. However, I think GD uses a systematic approach to grading coins that greatly increases his accuracy and makes it virtually impossible for him to be fooled by an AU coin.

I have often contemplated the idea of assembling an AU64 slider key date 20th century type set, but in the end it would take too much money away from my rainbow compulsion.

spock1k · 09-23-2008, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lehigh96

Thanks guys and don't forget to nominate your favorite thread this week.

BTW, I forgot to mention one thing. Many of the AU64 sliders are very difficult to even diagnose as AU coins. If the coin was raw, or the grade on the slab was covered, most collectors would mistake the coin for a uncirculated example. Even the most astute members of this forum would be fooled from time to time, with the exception of GD. However, I think GD uses a systematic approach to grading coins that greatly increases his accuracy and makes it virtually impossible for him to be fooled by an AU coin.

I have often contemplated the idea of assembling an AU64 slider key date 20th century type set, but in the end it would take too much money away from my rainbow compulsion.

TPg's have given grades of ms 66 and GD at times has called those coins AU and almost of those times i have agreed with him.

TPG's have also graded coins as high as ms 66 worth a pretty penny that should be body bagged

in case of your example i personally prefer the ms 63 to the au 58 but the point is very clearly made using the washington quarter IMO nice post

I am glad we didnt end up in a war over the IQ it would not have been good

Pocket Change · 09-23-2008, 03:39 AM

Super excellent post.

When I got back into collecting about three years ago, I bought my first every BU coin by mail. I remember getting it and seeing all the bag marks and thinking that I had really been taken to the cleaners.

Most of my "best" Kennedy's I've pulled from circulation.

Once again, everyone should "think out of the slab" more often

rohumpy · 09-23-2008, 06:15 AM

I am not sure I understand the grade AU-64. Would someone explain? I thought MS-60 was the lowest grade for mint state and AU would be below 60. Come to think of it, the highest AU I have ever seen is 58, not even 59.

Treashunt · 09-23-2008, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohumpy

I am not sure I understand the grade AU-64. Would someone explain? I thought MS-60 was the lowest grade for mint state and AU would be below 60. Come to think of it, the highest AU I have ever seen is 58, not even 59.

Rohumby:
Thanks for the posting, I am sorry, but I could not have nominated this posting because of the constant referral to AU-64.

And, you are correct.

AU is AU-50, AU-53, AU-55, AU-58.

But, never AU-64.

mark_h · 09-23-2008, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treashunt

Rohumby:
Thanks for the posting, I am sorry, but I could not have nominated this posting because of the constant referral to AU-64.

And, you are correct.

AU is AU-50, AU-53, AU-55, AU-58.

But, never AU-64.

I agree - confusing to those that do not really understand. I usually use the words "choice AU-58". Some AU58's are really nice coins.

Pocket Change · 09-23-2008, 09:22 AM

Perhaps to clear up a bit...

Of course, AU and '64' do not go together. The point of the post is that there are coins with MS-65 characteristics that have wear - thus they can not be 'MS' anymore - they become AU. And as you've all pointed out, the highest is AU-58 - a drop of 7 points on the scale when the only difference is wear.

The point is a coin that grades '58' on the scale could actually be a '64' if it didn't have that tiny amount of wear.

I think the whole idea of using AU-64 is to emphasize this point, not to start a numismatic vocabulary war like 'cent' vs. 'penny'.

mralexanderb · 09-23-2008, 10:29 AM

Great post. I've been in the AU-MS64 situation with a 1921 Peace $ and bought it for MS $s but later got a refund and bought an AU coin from another dealer that I was very happy with. I just couldn't see the wear on the MS 64 but other dealers could, so back it went.

I'll be trying my skill again at the coin show in Sacramento on 10/ 3 & 4th.

Bruce

Darkfenix · 09-23-2008, 10:54 AM

Very interesting read I may just have to keep my eyes out for them

thank you for posting this

USS656 · 09-23-2008, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocket Change

Perhaps to clear up a bit...

Of course, AU and '64' do not go together. The point of the post is that there are coins with MS-65 characteristics that have wear - thus they can not be 'MS' anymore - they become AU. And as you've all pointed out, the highest is AU-58 - a drop of 7 points on the scale when the only difference is wear.

The point is a coin that grades '58' on the scale could actually be a '64' if it didn't have that tiny amount of wear.

I think the whole idea of using AU-64 is to emphasize this point, not to start a numismatic vocabulary war like 'cent' vs. 'penny'.

I think it's a great post and something many people don't consider when looking for higher grade coins. As far as AU and 64 goes I understand grading well enough to understand what you meant. I think for those even a little confused by the use of the grade - they can take away from this what the message is. I'll use this analogy - ask any professor to teach at an elementary level and soon the class is left in the dark. You still were able to explain it clearly enough to reach any level regardless of experience. Great job and great post!

BTW: I might prefer that AU peace due to the hit on the cheek of the MS coin. That hit would really bother me - but that's just how I am...

Pocket Change · 09-23-2008, 12:24 PM

Just to clarify - LeHigh is the original poster!! I'm just trying to take credit for it

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