Norfed-Liberty Dollars

Discussion in 'Bullion Investing' started by tmoneyeagles, Jul 9, 2010.

  1. tmoneyeagles

    tmoneyeagles Indian Buffalo Gatherer

    I wanted to start a thread for a discussion about Norfed-Liberty Dollars.

    I've always found these coins very intriguing and they sparked my interest. Technically they are called bullion, and I've also seen them be called bartering tokens. Of course, there aren't any new ones being produced, unless underground, due to the charges against the Liberty Dollar organization, because of the United States Government believing these dollars undermine the U.S. currency.

    Do I believe that these dollars can undermine the U.S. currency? Yes I do, but not enough people know about them to do any real damage, and of course you have to pay a premium to get them, so doesn't make much since to use them for the purpose of trading, especially at face value.

    I collect these just for the heck of it, I think the designs are beautiful, most of the designs being better than the dead guys we have on United States coins.
    I do think they have some 'numismatic' value, only because the downright, hardcore, collectors of these dollars, pay buckoo bucks for some of them, and to some people these are just as collectible as I think they are.

    I'll post one of my best ones, I didn't pay any premium for at all. (Let's say I know a guy or two)

    This is also one of my best photos.
    Post some of yours too, or post some comments questions. Let's get a discussion going!

    [​IMG]
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  3. 1970 Silver Art

    1970 Silver Art Silver Art Bar Collector

    I have seen these on ebay. The ones that I have seen with the biggest premiums are the Liberty dollars with the Ron Paul reverse. I think that those have numismatic value to them. Some of the "limited edition" Ron Paul Liberty dollars with the serial numbers on them have an even bigger premium on them.

    I have not seen any Ron Paul Liberty dollars (or any other Liberty dollars) at my local dealer but I have seen some regular silver Liberty Dollar rounds at local coin shows in the past and some of the dealers that I have seen will sell these at the same premium as .999 generic silver rounds.

    If I see a silver Ron Paul Liberty Dollar that is selling for the same price as .999 generic silver rounds, then I might pick up one to just for collection purposes.

    I do not have a silver Ron Paul Liberty dollar but I have a Copper Ron Paul Liberty Dollar round. I bought it on ebay last year:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  4. tmoneyeagles

    tmoneyeagles Indian Buffalo Gatherer

    The silver ones bring big premiums, they were low mintages of those, while there were many many more coppers.

    There is a new silver, 1/2 ounce silver Ron Paul being sold right now. Not by the Liberty Dollar Organization though, it will be just like the 2009 2nd Amendment 'Gun' Dollar, minted by a private company, to keep the Liberty Dollar alive.

    Here is my copper Ron Paul:

    As you can see it is hallmarked.

    [​IMG]
  5. 1970 Silver Art

    1970 Silver Art Silver Art Bar Collector

    Besides the Ron Paul Liberty Dollars, I think that there were some variations of the 1-oz silver Liberty Dollars that came out. I am thinking of the silver Liberty Dollars that had the "Handcuff" symbol, "Gun" symbol and some other variations of the Liberty dollar that was still minted by Liberty Dollar organization after the Feds raided their warehouse and operations.

    I might be wrong on this but I thought I remembered seeing some of those variations when the Liberty Dollar organization used to send out emails on new silver Liberty Dollars. If I am wrong on any of this, then feel free correct me.
  6. tmoneyeagles

    tmoneyeagles Indian Buffalo Gatherer

    There are tons of other 1 ounce silver Liberty Dollars.
    http://sites.google.com/site/libertydollarencyclopedia/
    ^The above site has everything that has been made, excluding the new 2010 1/2 Ounce Ron Paul's.
  7. 1970 Silver Art

    1970 Silver Art Silver Art Bar Collector

    Thanks for that information. I did not think to google that. That link will be helpful for me because I will try to find some of those locally at coin shows at a decent premium over spot silver. There are certain silver Liberty Dollar rounds that I am interested in collecting. It looks like it might be time for me to make another wish list called the silver Liberty Dollar "wish list". Thanks again for that link.
  8. tmoneyeagles

    tmoneyeagles Indian Buffalo Gatherer

    No problem!
    Some of them can go for buckoo bucks but they might slip through a crack at a little above spot! Leaving room for a good profit.
    There are still a few of the more expensive ones that I'd want to collect though, but the prices kill me sometimes. If this was the ONLY thing I collected then sure, I'd shell out for the $100+ ones.
  9. Cloudsweeper99

    Cloudsweeper99 Treasure Hunter

    I consider them to be silver rounds. However, because of the history behind them, they will probably always be worth a premium to bullion value. So if you can buy them for silver round prices, it is probably a bargain.
  10. tmoneyeagles

    tmoneyeagles Indian Buffalo Gatherer

    Which are my thoughts exactly, but there are some out there that don't believe that these are worth buying at a premium. I have to disagree and say they are worth buying at a premium, but I'm not necessarily going to be the one doing it.
  11. 1970 Silver Art

    1970 Silver Art Silver Art Bar Collector

    If I find some silver Liberty Dollars at the next coin show that I go to, I want to buy them from a coin show dealer who just treats it (and prices it) as .999 generic silver bullion. I view these Norfed Liberty Dollars in the same way that I view 1-oz 1970's silver art bars in that there are "rarity values" involved. A lot of 1970's silver art bars will ALWAYS sell at a very high premium (ex: $20-$30 over spot silver) but, like Norfed Liberty Dollars, several 1-oz 1970's silver art bars that might normally sell for $20-$30 over spot silver on ebay might "fall through the cracks" and end up at a dealers table and end up selling for $1.00-$1.50 over spot silver.

    If you see silver Norfed Liberty Dollars selling at a low premiums, then more than likely they are at coin shows. My personal coin experiences tell me that good deals can be had a coin shows and I think that silver Norfed Liberty Dollars will be no different IMO.

    If a person is very patient, then a Liberty Dollar can be had for a low premium over spot. If a person wants one right now, then they can buy one on ebay but they will pay for their inpatience in a form of a very high premium over spot silver.
  12. krispy

    krispy krispy

    While I don't own any of these nor subscribe any political discourse surrounding these coins, I too consider these coins to be primarily bullion coins. They are very interesting in concept and will likely continue to fetch some sort of collector premium over spot price far into the future. I suspect that while there are collectors of them now who are more closely aligned to the ideals behind these pieces, there may be a future collector base interested in this era of limited private minting coins. They may one day be as specialized of a niche collector market as are early California and Oregon gold coin collectors. No matter what ones personal politics were at the time these were conceived, nor ones reason for investing in them at the time, or currently, it is the future collector to whom these coins will speak about history and the mindset of the people who brought these coins to life. I think that will drive collector interest down the road. The limited mintage will be a huge part in defining the numismatic premium.

    T$:
    Your image of the coin in the OP is quite detailed. The quality of the image is improving significantly. The pics are getting so good that I can even detect a fingerprint on the reverse between 11 and 12 o'clock.

    A minor point about lighting that I can note would be that the bottom edge of both sides seems a little under illuminated. I know that you typically position your lamps at 10 and 2 o'clock. I suggest also working with a sheet of white paper positioned near the bottom of the coin, at 6 o'clock, to reflect light back on the coin. No extra lamps needed, just a low tech reflector to redirect the illumination in the under lit areas. Just a suggestion.

    Good work on the pics, they're very enjoyable to look at in your threads. :)
  13. tmoneyeagles

    tmoneyeagles Indian Buffalo Gatherer

    Well I can adjust the backlight on the coin, more on Photoscape, I can get these results:

    [​IMG]

    The problems with my images, on most coins I photographed a while back are the coins turning out dark. I think I just under edited the one in the OP, and I'll keep the above example.

    Krispy, I agree with your thoughts, the numismatic drive of these coins comes from low mintages, and as state by Cloudsweeper, the history behind them. I think the value will continue to rise, if things get worse for Liberty Dollar...
  14. fretboard

    fretboard Defender of Old Coinage

    Yes some of the Norfed dollars are worth big dollars for sure! I think Bernard Von NotHaus started minting them in 1998 and if you have one of the first year dollars they go for well over $500 last time I checked. I have a 2003 half ounce somewhere around I bought on ebay. The whole Federal Gov't raid and later underground workings of the Norfed dollar, Freedom dollar, Liberty dollar etc has cost Mr NotHaus some big dollars and basically robbed him of his livleyhood, at least in a public format. It's quite a complicated case and at first hinged on the use of the word "dollar", then the use of gold and silver certificates of actual gold and silver that was stored at a warehouse but didn't include the SEC, EFT or any of the goings on that are required to sell such commodity certificates. Someone else who knows more about this subject can correct me if I'm wrong but that's how I understand the whole fiasco. Whether NotHaus did something illegal or not is debatable, I only wish I had a handful of the 1998 dollars!!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar#Federal_Government_response
  15. tmoneyeagles

    tmoneyeagles Indian Buffalo Gatherer

    The big case against Bernard is that these dollars undermined the currency of the United States.

    One thing about these dollars is that they shouldn't be called 'coins'
    By definition a coin is a piece of metal stamped and issued by the authority of a government for use as money. The government of the United States had nothing to do with Norfed. Norfed was the first name of the organization from 98-06, that sold Liberty Dollars. Liberty Dollar was the name of the other organization that took its place, which is only fitting as the name of the dollars were Liberty Dollars. Freedom Dollar is a part of Liberty Dollar, but Liberty Dollar has made different types of dollars, with different messages, Liberty, Freedom, etc.

    I wish I had a 98' as well. I would also like a few of the LIBERTAD Dollars, those are pretty darn cool.

    Here is the earliest example I own, not my best picture, was taken a while back, did the best I could this morning with editing!
    [​IMG]
  16. fretboard

    fretboard Defender of Old Coinage

    Great looking coins for sure! The 1998 has gone down quite a bit in price as I just saw one on ebay for around $225, that's a huge difference on what they used to go for but I could be wrong and maybe it wasn't the first year at all. I bought one of the tea party copper dollars only because they have gone up in price so much. You used to be able to pick up the copper tea party dollars for a little more than $2.00, now there up to $5.50 on BIN. Not an expensive coin by any means but you never know what will happen with the tea party or the "party of hate" as they are known is some areas and for that reason alone they may become a $20 coin sometime soon. BTW I heard there was a Tea Party coin contest what's up with that? Anyone know??
  17. tmoneyeagles

    tmoneyeagles Indian Buffalo Gatherer

    98' is first year, you are right :thumb:

    The Tea Party Dollars are some of my favorites, and the two other collectors of these that I am close with, that are hard core, bought hundreds of them!
    Here is one of mine.

    [​IMG]

    I had three, and gave one of them away to a good friend of mine.

    As for the contest, I have no clue... Where is the contest being held, and what is it for?
  18. 1970 Silver Art

    1970 Silver Art Silver Art Bar Collector

    I have one of those too. Here is the Tea Party Copper round that I bought last year on ebay:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    These are the only two copper rounds that I have. Thanks for starting this thread. Now it makes me want to look for more of the various types of silver Norfed Liberty Dollars.
  19. tmoneyeagles

    tmoneyeagles Indian Buffalo Gatherer

    No problem!
    Love these things!
    Yours is nice. :thumb:
    Here is another one of mine!

    [​IMG]
  20. 1970 Silver Art

    1970 Silver Art Silver Art Bar Collector

    There is a coin show that I am going to next month and in addition to looking for the '70's silver art bars that are on my "wish list", I will also see if I can find any 1-oz silver Norfed Liberty dollars. If I can find any variation of the 1-oz silver Norfed Liberty Dollar for a decent premium over spot, then that would be very good for me. The link you gave me in an earlier post will help me a lot. I like the fact that this link has pictures of what the various Norfed Liberty Dollars look like.
  21. tmoneyeagles

    tmoneyeagles Indian Buffalo Gatherer

    I hope it does and I hope you get a very nice peace out of it.

    Now, I know somebody said peace...

    [​IMG]

    The above coin, I bought for $20, is my favorite Liberty Dollar, I own.

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