Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Valentinian, Apr 16, 2019.

  1. Valentinian

    Valentinian Supporter! Supporter

    Zelle is a method of paying in the US that is electronic and fee-free. I used it for the first time today as an alternative to PayPal. I spent $193 with a US dealer and PayPal fee would have been about $7. But with Zelle it cost me $193 and he got $193!

    About a month ago my on-line banking site had a new link to pay with Zelle. I didn't know what it was and looked into it a bit. (You can find it on wikipedia or their own site:
    https://www.zellepay.com/ )

    It turns out banks created it to allow free bank-to-bank payments with identification based on e-mail addresses or mobile numbers linked to accounts. I asked the dealer for permission to use it and he had not heard of it, but agreed to give it a try based on the Zelle link. I used it this afternoon and he got money into his bank account immediately after he followed the instructions from Zelle linking his e-mail (I used his e-mail address) to his account. He wrote me that it was confusing at first but now that it has been done he expects the next time will be easy.

    If a dealer charges me $193 I would like him to get $193. With PayPal they don't. With Zelle they do.
    Carthago, Finn235, Theodosius and 4 others like this.
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  3. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    I have it on my bank account but most never heard of it.
  4. paddyman98

    paddyman98 Let me burst your bubble! Supporter

    Zelle is the method I use to pay my Child Support! :rolleyes:

    You can put a Memo on the transaction. You can go back to it if needed for future reference.
  5. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    Most have either never heard of it or have seen it but ignored. Its all over and advertised on most mobile banking aps and bank websites as well. Part of the problem with the program is that their website is vague and not very helpful in explaining exactly what it is. The biggest part of the problem with it is that there is absolutely no buyer protection. Once the money is gone, its gone. One has to be absolutely certain of their transaction.

    As a seller I warmly welcome a method that does not cost me any money. As a buyer I just wouldn't use it over Paypal.
    John Anthony and Alegandron like this.
  6. Valentinian

    Valentinian Supporter! Supporter

    That must be why their site emphasizes paying people you trust. It is a like handing over cash. However, if it is someone you trust, then saving 3-4% is worthwhile. In my original post I mentioned paying a dealer. I had bought from him several times and have confidence in him. I wanted him to get the whole $193 instead of $7 less. It seems to me PayPal fees are high. If I have to pay some eBay seller I don't know, the buyer protection that comes with PayPal is worth something, maybe even 3-4%. But if you have to pay CNG or another major firm, it is not.
  7. Clawcoins

    Clawcoins Well-Known Member

    Zelle is all over TV.
    It's that "Girl Scouts buy our cookies" commercial with the jogger that has no cash and ends up jogging away with a handful of cookie boxes because he does have a cell phone and a bank app (Well Fargo commercial).

    Of course, the flip side of it which I was unfortunately exposed to was when someone sells you something and never delivers. Zelle has no buyer protection.

    Luckily I got my money back .. months later from the seller, not Zelle who essentially told me "oh well".

    If I dig around, I can find the thread here ...
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
    rrdenarius likes this.
  8. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    I'm glad Ken pointed this out because it relieves a bit of my fears triggered whenever someone offers something for nothing. Certainly I agree that This has appeal if I were sending money to Valentinian or one of the others here that I have known for 30 years. This makes me think of the situation with Postal insurance. When we Register or insure a package containing a coin, we are betting this extra amount that the package will be lost or stolen. If I am sending a coin to Valentinian, the person I do not trust is some postal worker, not Valentinian. If we spend 5% on insurance we are betting that they will lose one package in 20. We each have to decide when we can not assume the risk because the package is too valuable but my personal experience is an insured parcel with a declared value of $500 is a lot more likely to go missing than the birthday card you plan to send me containing a $500 coin wrapped in tissue so you can't feel the coin (may work better for obols than Aes Grave). My most recent parcel from a self insuring seller contained $700 worth of coins, arrived in 3 days and had a return address that suggested the contents was not worth stealing. At what point do we each feel it necessary to buy postal insurance? Try to collect on a loss and see if your answer changes. In 2016, Paypal caused me to get three refunds for coins not received. Since then I have lost none. I don't know when I will decide they are not worth their costs.
    Valentinian likes this.
  9. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    As Doug points out physical loss is an issue but can be covered by buyer protection or insurance. But the other issue is not delivery but rather if the coin turns out to be what you expected. Tooled, fake, different coin? There are lots of shenanigans that go on that would not be covered by Zelle but would have to be concluded based on other factors. I would certainly accept payment by Zelle but the buyer has to assume that I have integrity, honesty, morals and much more.
  10. EWC3

    EWC3 (mood: stubborn)

    Interesting - I have a couple of questions

    This appears to be the sort of system that has been normal at UK banks for quite a while, and widely in Europe. From here it looks long overdue in the US

    Aside from my UK bank I have three accounts with an outfit called transferwise which gives me easy cheap access to multiple currencies. I use this for getting payments from Europe to my transferwise euro account, but when I try to get payments from the US to my transferwise $ account (and this is from people in the trade who know me well) people back off - telling me their bank will not play ball. (Conversion between different currency accounts runs at 0.5% - way better than Paypal, on this and all costs)

    It sounds like using Zelle into a transferwise account might be a solution for US$ to GBP and Euro? Has anyone tried it?

    Secondly - Doug will be right about Paypal refunding buyers - because they just take that money back from the seller. But has anyone as a seller ever got money back from Paypal as a seller when it goes missing in the mail (that is to say, real insurance, Paypal's own money.....).

    My experiences with both Amazon and Paypal have been negative :-(
  11. Valentinian

    Valentinian Supporter! Supporter

    From reading about Zelle I think it for US bank to US bank only. TransferWise already does US dollars to other currencies.
  12. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    The US is certainly way behind Europe when it comes to banking. Wire transfers are very costly here (both sending and receiving), so much so that I simply do not accept them. For sending a wire, yes, I use Transferwise and it works flawlessly so far and I like it. The problem with that system is trying to figure out how to accept (rather than send) a transfer with an account with them. The FAQ's and the website are insufficient to really figure it out (and I havent as yet). But from what I can tell you can accept money into Transferwise and then use it to pay back out again, just like Paypal was in the beginning. As far as I know there isnt yet a method to transfer funds out of Transferwise and into your bank account.
  13. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    Transferwise isn't a bank but a money transmitter, so I dont think you could fund your account with Zelle. But I also see that they have their own Mastercard debit linked to your account with them. It gets complicated...
  14. Valentinian

    Valentinian Supporter! Supporter

    This is not how I understand it. I have used TransferWise many times and it does not keep any of my money. It takes it from my linked bank account (I use a savings account) and sends it immediately to the the other person's bank account, or vice versa. There are no funds "in TransferWise" except for a very short time in the middle of a transfer.
  15. EWC3

    EWC3 (mood: stubborn)

    Well - I keep money in mine, I have the three accounts all with the usual codes and they have physical addresses, and the physical US address is here:

    19 W 24th Street
    New York 10010
    United States

    To be honest, I think you have not gotten the whole story

    Well Ken, what can I reply to that? Saying it don’t make it so

    Please take on board that I ran bank accounts in the UK, USA, Holland, France and Germany, all for several decades, prior to Transferwise..................
  16. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    I'd have to look at it more closely. When I look at my account there isn't any information which says I have an account number, swift codes, etc. or anything else. So, I have no idea how to accept a wire from buyers. It would be nice. A lot of Europeans end up not paying me for auctions because I wont do a wire.

    Well, yes, its really a matter of semantics, but legally they aren't considered a bank. Back when Paypal was first created they had a nasty habit of freezing accounts and funds for little to no reason and there wasn't much anyone could do because they legally weren't a bank or financial institution.
  17. Valentinian

    Valentinian Supporter! Supporter

    I think it is super easy with TransferWise. You are in their system because you have used it to pay. Give your e-mail address to the person who wants to pay you. When they try to pay they insert that address and it knows which account to put money into (the same one they take it out of). You don't have to do anything. TransferWise will send you an e-mail when it happens.
    Carthago likes this.
  18. EWC3

    EWC3 (mood: stubborn)

    My Transferwise US account comes with a personalised Account number, Wire transfer number, Bank code (SWIFT / BIC) and Routing number (ACH or ABA) So it looks nothing like my Paypal account. Actually - it looks an awful lot like a bank account. As it claims to be.

    Charges are 0.5% over mid for currency transfer, and 35 pence for a withdrawal to my local bank. Peanuts. (BTW - I have never accepted wires, and rarely used them)

    It also offers a debit card drawing from any positive funds in any Transferwise account.

    I paid my way all round Utah last year, using a Transferwise debit card drawing on funds deposited in my US Transferwise $ account. Only place it failed was Walmart.

    Actually this discussion mirrors private discussions I had elsewhere – but you will to have to pm me to get my more candid conclusions on the real situation.

    Getting back to this Zelle matter – if Zelle pays into my Transferwise US account then its job done for me – so I am still curious about that
  19. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    Well, I just logged in and now I see all the data that I was not seeing before, so obviously I can start taking transfers in as well as out. That's a really nice thing!

    As for Zelle: As Transferwise is listed in New York I would assume that you can use Zelle to transfer in to Transferwise.
  20. EWC3

    EWC3 (mood: stubborn)

    Thanks Ken. I will experiment when the opportunity arises, though I am not much active these days.

    My recollection of transatlantic trade was of getting a paper cheque mailed over here, compiling a bunch of them to mail back over there, then waiting for a paper statement to be mailed back here - to say they arrived. Took about 2 months+ to clear up a transaction. And that just with people you knew well enough to trust………

    A different world.
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