You're the grader

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Insider, May 25, 2022.

?

What would you do?

Poll closed May 27, 2022.
  1. It is common modern junk. Let it go out as a 68.

    4 vote(s)
    10.0%
  2. Net grade the coin down to 66-67.

    8 vote(s)
    20.0%
  3. Net grade the coin to 64-65.

    7 vote(s)
    17.5%
  4. Net the coin down below MS-65.

    2 vote(s)
    5.0%
  5. grade the coin MS - Details.

    19 vote(s)
    47.5%
  1. justafarmer

    justafarmer Senior Member

    All the graders noticed the damage right away - yet the original grader still gave the coin a grade of MS-68?
     
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  3. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    I don't know why people don't get that except they never learned how to grade in the first place. Especially when you hang around here long enough you get the notion coin collecting is microscopes and errors. They've been here all this time and they can tell a DDO-001 from a DDO-002 but they don't know circulated means one thing, and one thing, alone, absence of wear.
     
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  4. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    I figured this was the point you were zeroing in on. A "Mint Error" is actually something that happens to a coin before it leaves the press for the last time*. If it gets damaged by a packaging machine, or by a Mint employee, that's just damage, even if it happened within the Mint's walls.

    * I wanted to say "in the press", but that leaves out blanks, planchets, and defects thereof. Then I wanted to say "before or during striking", but that might leave out multi-struck coins**.

    ** I choose to say that if a coin goes back into a Mint coin press, like a dime overstruck with cent dies, then that also falls under my definition. Of course, that also means almost any coin could become a "Mint Error", if only you could sneak it back into a Mint press...
     
  5. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    justafarmer, posted: "All the graders noticed the damage right away - yet the original grader still gave the coin a grade of MS-68?"

    :rolleyes: My wife tells me I'm a poor communicator. So this is the best I can do:

    This poll is fictional.
    or All the graders noticed the damage right away...The coin went out Unc Details, Damaged.

    You see, when I post something to discuss, I massage the actual occurrence to learn what you all think, make a point, trick you into thinking for yourself, etc.

    jeffB, posted: "I figured this was the point you were zeroing in on. A "Mint Error" is actually something that happens to a coin before it leaves the press for the last time*. If it gets damaged by a packaging machine, or by a Mint employee, that's just damage, even if it happened within the Mint's walls."


    True, but a more important point is to watch out for damaged coins that are straight graded. If any TPGS straight grades that coin, some folks would buy it at the grade on the label and some would not want it at any grade. ;)
     
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  6. chascat

    chascat Well-Known Member

    MS DETAILS That type of damage gives it a details grade in my mind, even though the rest of the coin appears un-damaged in any way.
     
  7. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect for 66+ Supporter

    In this case I wouldn't buy the coin in question, even with a straight grade. Since TPG graders are human they aren't infallable; mistakes happen. I won't bid on a slabbed coin without seeing it in hand, or from a good quality photo.
     
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  8. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Although it would break my heart, I would detail it!
     
    MIGuy likes this.
  9. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    "This coin is going out "Details." Every grader saw the damage right away. :D
    It's too much. The 50c in the set with the same damage was worse. This is common on Ikes and Anthony dollars."

    "A Jefferson nickel passing through the grading room is a naked-eye gem plus. It is slabbed with a MS-68 label when it reaches your desk for QC."

    Having trouble rationalizing these..
     
  10. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Could I give it an MS67-DETAILS?
     
  11. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Close your eyes. Think of a Jefferson nickel design. Make it blindingly, frosty, brilliant and fully struck 6 steps with no visible marks (until you put a 10X glass on it and after doing your best not grade it perfect MS-70; you finally see some tiny, virtually hidden nicks. Easy = MS-68 and one grader wants to MS-69 the piece.

    NOW, you are ready to decide its grade for the poll because you see it is damaged. :D
     
  12. chascat

    chascat Well-Known Member

    I see what you mean...the scrape is so small that without high mag. it would probably pass by most graders eyes.
     
  13. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    @chascat,

    :jawdrop: I'm not able to quote your post above in my answer o_O so I'm going to guess that one of the :blackeye: "eight thorns" I've removed :kiss::dead: from my rear end has left their scent in this discussion. :smuggrin:

    That scrape is not small and anyone using a bright incandescent light could see it right off without needing to tip or rotate the coin into the right orientation. It is visible as soon as the reverse is examined without magnification. I'll post some images of this type of damage and show a larger part of the coin.
     
    Kentucky likes this.
  14. mikenoodle

    mikenoodle The Village Idiot

    ok... I have withheld comment on the process to this point, trying to "play the game" that you propose, @Insider , but here's the issue that I have with your premise.

    For a coin that has such an obvious issue, and I think we can agree it's obvious, as nobody missed the damage, why on earth would two graders miss the problem? You mean to tell me that two professional graders missed this damage??

    I have to admit, I was a bit perplexed and as such I gave the coin a straight grade, thinking that based on the graders' opinions, it would (or should), indeed, straight grade.

    I always learn things in these threads, but the scenario had confusion baked right in because of this detail.

    I think the better and more productive conversation to have would be, "what should the graders give to this coin?" or something that talks about the subjectivity of damage happening at the Mint and whether or not it remains Mint State in all situations.

    ... but I digress
     
  15. chascat

    chascat Well-Known Member

    Images will surely help my tired eyes...My first thought was a details grade, but I can see it passing thru as some unc. grade
     
  16. longshot

    longshot Enthusiast Supporter

    I assumed it was a planchet flaw that didn't strike out.(because of the way the OP slanted it :) ) Though I agree after another look that it looks like damage.
     
  17. justafarmer

    justafarmer Senior Member

    We are dealing with two different scenarios here. A fictional one and one from real life. Each consisting of their own distinctly different set of facts. What the coin graded in the real life scenario has no bearing on how the coin should grade in the fictionalized one.
     
  18. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    :jawdrop::rolleyes::banghead::banghead: mikenoodle, posted: "ok... I have withheld comment on the process to this point, trying to "play the game" that you propose, [It would have been better if you had stayed :muted: But I'm glad you posted because if you didn't understand by reading all my comments I'll bet another 40% of those just :watching: don't understand either! :(] but here's the issue that I have with your premise." For a coin that has such an obvious issue, and I think we can agree it's obvious, as nobody missed the damage, why on earth would two graders miss the problem? You mean to tell me that two professional graders missed this damage??"

    Award for BEST ANSWER in the "short & sweet" answer category:
    justafarmer, post: 8358740, member: 3926"]We are dealing with two different scenarios here. A fictional one and one from real life. Each consisting of their own distinctly different set of facts. What the coin graded in the real life scenario has no bearing on how the coin should grade.

    My poll asked how you would grade the coin if you were a grader doing QC and saw something the other graders missed!

    I have to admit, I was a bit perplexed and as such I gave the coin a straight grade, thinking that based on the graders' opinions, it would (or should), indeed, straight grade.

    Note to all: Most of you have a brain and two eyes. No matter what your level of numismatic experience is, TRUST IN YOURSELF AND YOUR OWN EYES while you are learning and developing your personal grading standards. Don't be afraid to ask questions of anyone who disagrees with what you see.

    I always learn things in these threads, but the scenario had confusion baked right in because of this detail.

    I think the better and more productive conversation to have would be, "what should the graders give to this coin?" [:oops::sorry: I tried to do that and I failed you :(] or something that talks about the subjectivity of damage happening at the Mint and whether or not it remains Mint State in all situations.

    I think we already discussed that a MS coin remains MS no matter what you do to it that can reduce its MS grade and/or value EXCEPT FOR FRICTION WEAR. The only exception occurs with "Net Grading." In some rare cases a MS copper coin can be net graded all the way down to XF! TPGS net grade too but not to this:wacky::confused: and STUPID degree. :D
     
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  19. justafarmer

    justafarmer Senior Member

    In the fictionalized scenario even QC grades the coin as a naked eyed gem plus.
     
  20. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    justafarmer, added: "In the fictionalized scenario even QC grades the coin as a naked eyed gem plus."

    :facepalm: Award rebuked. :D :banghead::banghead::banghead: That is not the case!

    OP's Original Instructions for you as a fictional TPG in a fictional scenario:

    Insider, posted: "A Jefferson nickel passing through the grading room is a naked-eye gem plus. [That means the the graders saw the beautiful coin, graded it, sent it to be slabbed. The QC guy has not seen it yet!] It is slabbed with a MS-68 label when it reaches your desk for QC."

    Thus my fictional poll: Now, in your opinion as the fictional QC grader in a fictional story that was based on an actual coin sent out as damaged, what do you do after you see the damage on the coin graded MS-68 in the fictional story? Either the fictional graders in the fictional grading room missed the damage or ignored it when the coin was examined in the grading room?
     
  21. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Another example of similar but more extensive damage:

    IMG_3899.JPG
     
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