Your Oldest Provenance

One further note, the problem with provenance is that prior to the 1990's, most coins were not pictured in catalogs. Only a few high end coins were, the ones auction houses thought might fetch the big money and get the crowds in. Your $400 and below coins are most likely in the category of "Never been photographed prior to the 1990s or 2000's", which is 95% or more of ancient coins...and most people who bought the coins before you probably never bothered to keep or record the old provenance unless it was from a famous collection.

 

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Cool NFA tag. I try to advise others to get a copy of Bruce McNall's "Fun While It Lasted". I remember those heady days (I was not one of them, but did buy from them and knew the players). While the book only devotes a small portion to coins, it is an incredible read (and can be had for about $5 shipped on Amazon). It is sad, one of his acolytes was really vocal in that he wanted to emulate Bruce. He did, and while he didnt end up in prison (as yet), he certainly did steal many millions of dollars!

 

Are you saying my coin was stolen grave goods? Creepy.

 

You have my curiosity up.

 

Bing,

I think I found it. "Winter/Spring 1990", between my catalogs 13 and 14. Lot number 15, at $125. I didnt keep good records back then, not very good catalog numbering. Basil Demertiadi used to subscribe to my catalogs back then, he once asked for missing ones (there may not have been any, as my numbering was terrible back then). I think he said he was keeping them in a library at some university in Athens. Hope this helps.

 

or

 

Thanks. I will add it to my catalog, but let me get this straight. You owned this particular coin in 1990, Catalog 13/14, Lot 15? Also, the price you indicated, was that your sales price or the cost you paid for the coin?

 

No, it was an "in between" and un-numbered catalog. Between 13 and 14 I had "Winter/Spring 1990". Why? I dont know. Things were different back then. Yes, I did own it then. Lot 15, yes, sadly there weren't many coins on the list! The price listed was the list price, not what I sold it for (I dont know if it sold at list or otherwise). Even if I did have sales invoices that far back it would be a nightmare to figure out what it sold for. I do remember that it came back to me (for whatever reason, I may have bought it back from another dealer) and was later sold I think on Numismatists Online (long defunct, one of the earliest of online sales venues). I tried to check it on coinvac, but that database is more glitchy than one with parkinsons (no disrespect there).

 

Thanks again for the clarification. I will try to put this in the right perspective in my catalog.

 

Sicily, Syracuse. Hieron I AR Tetradrachm
(240 Onkia)
478-466 BC
Struck circa 478-475 BC
Diameter: 24 mm
Weight: 16.90 grams
Obverse: Charioteer driving quadriga right; above, Nike flying right, crowning horses
Reverse: Diademed head of Arethusa right; four dolphins around
Reference: Boehringer series IXa, 190 (V86/R130); SNG ANS –; Randazzo 356 (same dies)
Other: 2h, Near VF, toned, test cut on reverse
From the Robert and Julius Diez Collection, Ex Gustav Philipsen Collection
(Part I, J. Hirsch XV, 28 May 1906), lot 1132





Sicily, Syracuse Æ Hemidrachm
Timoleon and the Third Democracy
(30 Onkia)
344-317 BC
Timoleontic Symmachy coinage. 1st series, circa 344-339/8 BC
Diameter: 24 mm
Weight: 16.94 grams
Obverse: Laureate head of Zeus Eleutherios right
Reverse: Upright thunderbolt; to right, eagle standing right
Reference: Castrizio series I, 1γ; CNS 72; SNG ANS 477-88
Other: 9h, Good VF, red-brown patina, a few areas of roughness, some cleaning marks
From the Robert and Julius Diez Collection, Ex Gustav Philipsen Collection
(Part I, J. Hirsch XV, 28 May 1906), lot 1227



Classical Numismatic Group, in association with Gitbud & Naumann, are pleased to offer selections of Greek coinage from the Diez Collection. This collection contains a number of coins with pedigrees to important sales of the early twentieth century. A portion was originally sold by Numismatik Lanz in 2011, and although a few of the pieces here were originally offered in that sale, most, especially the coins of Magna Graecia and Sicily, have not been seen since their appearance in sales over a century ago.

Prof. Dr. Robert Diez (1844 - 1922) was the son of Emil Diez, the mayor of Pößneck. Shortly after his birth, the family moved to Dresden, a city renowned for its culture and artistic associations. There, Robert studied art, becoming a well-known sculptor in the process. Much of his work was created for public moments in Germany, including the Reichstag in Berlin. A member of both the Dresden and Berlin Academy of Arts, Diez was influenced by the sculpture of ancient Greece. This naturally drew him to ancient Greek coins, which he collected until his death in Loschwitz, a district of Dresden, in 1922.

Munich-born Julius Diez (1870 - 1957), like his relative, was an artist, professor, and intellectual. A painter and a graphic artist, Diez was influenced by the prevailing artistic trends of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Among his works were book illustrations and items of ephemera (postcards, etc.). At the same time, Diez employed his artistic abilities to liberate art from conservative constraints. Besides publishing illustrations in the satirical journal Simplicissimus, Diez, in 1908, created a bookplate for the author and fellow member of the Münchener Secession, George Habich. This last work is notable not just for the social association, but also because two Greek coins were included in the design. Diez was also an associate of the German poet and writer, Richard Fedor Leopold Dehmel.

While it is uncertain which of the two men, Prof. Dr. Robert Diez or Julius Diez, started and built it, the Diez Collection offers a unique window into the collecting of Greek coins at the beginning of the last century. Of the 176 coins in this sale, only 26 are not pedigreed to earlier sales. Most of those that are pedigreed were sold by the important German and Austrian auction houses of the time — A. Hess Nachf., Brüder Egger, and Dr. Jacob Hirsch —and came from important collections including Consul Weber, Virzi, Philipsen, and von Schennis, as well as the Berlin Königliches Münzkabinett duplicates which were originally part of Imhoof-Blumer’s collection. The few other pedigreed coins were purchased from smaller German dealers, such as K. Schild in Berlin during World War II, and C.G. Thieme, who operated in Leipzig and Dresden between the 1870s and 1933. Since many of the coins in this collection where not illustrated in the original sales catalogs, their illustration in this sale will provide a useful supplement to those important sales of the first two decades of the twentieth century.


Yah, I thought it was pretty fricken cool, so I jumped-in with both feet (my one and only "printed" auction adventure)

... they're usually soooo far above my pay-grade, right?!!

I love these two coins => "adrenaline" it was fun (money well spent)

 

ex Triton XVIII, 6 January 2015, Lot 373.
From the collection of the MoneyMuseum, Zurich.
ex Numismatica Ars Classica, Auction 13, 8 October 1998, “Basel Art Museum” (from the Athos D. Moretti [1907-1993] Collection, which was exhibited there), Lot 401.
From Schloss Friedenstein (Gotha, Germany) Collection.
ex Carl Adolph Gottlob von Schachmann [1725-1789] Collection, Catalogue raisonné d'une collection de médailles, Liepzig, 1774, p. 55.

 

John,

You got us all beat so far!

 

Ionia Ephesos, Drachm
201 BC
Diameter: 17 mm
Weight: 3.2 grams
Obverse: E-PH; bee
Reference: Mario Trozzo (aka, Mario the guy that can get you anything), that time we traded coins behind the big rock, Trade #2, 990 AD



... winna-winna?

 

Really! Read the book. The problem was nothing about stolen grave goods or modern matters of Cultural Property but what I consider far worse things you may not even understand when finished with the book. I was amazed at the people who bought coins but never took delivery allowing them to be stored with the seller rather like some do today if you buy a ton of silver. There even was the great Athena Fund business where you could buy shares in expensive coins. Can't afford an EIDS MAR? No problem; just buy a share of a thousand coins you can't afford including an EIDs or two. All this was not entirely bad. I have some really nice catalogs showing coins I couldn't afford ... not even a piece of them.

 

Roman Empire. Hadrian (117-138AD). Egypt, Alexandria. AR Tetradrachm. Ex CNG e-sale 357 (Aug 2015); ex A.K. Collection [Triton XVIII (Jan 2015)]; Ex Dr. Steger Collection [Munzhandlung Basel 6 (1936)]; Ex Giovani Dattari Collection (before 1906).

 

Oh my! That eagle...

 

I've wondered a little about this provenance, having at least one coin that is from the Virzi collection. Does anyone know when the photographic prints of his collection of 2238 coins were published? On his website, Edgar Owen says "circa 1907 or before", but on Douglas Saville's numismatic book site, a description of the set of prints notes that, "At the time of the 1973 sale, original photographs of this tremendous collection were issued by Leu in very few sets, and given out by the company only to their most major clients, as a permanent record of the whole collection, and were almost certainly produced by Sylvia Hurter, Bank Leu’s noted photographer of coins, and their specialist numismatist at the time of the sale."

So, 1907 or 1973? And if it is 1973, then the provenance of the coins could likely just be narrowed to between 1907-1973. Also, would the record then include the coins that were dispersed in the 1907 Hirsch sale? Possible, since the photographs were of plaster casts of the coins, but does anyone know if it actually is the case that the record of the 2238 coins were of his entire collection?


SICILY, Syracuse
Hieron II (270-215 BC)
AE18. 4.08g, 17.9mm. SICILY, Syracuse, Hieron II, circa 275-269 BC. CNS 192; HGC 2, 1497; Virzi 1924 (this coin). O: Wreathed head of Kore-Persephone left. R: Bull butting left; club and AP monogram above, IE in exergue.
Ex Thomas Virzi Collection, no. 1924

 

I have a handful of coins with provenances dating to the 1800s. Thirteen of them are from the collection James R. Eaton (1834-1897), a professor of mathematics, natural science, ancient languages, and theology. Those thirteen included eight Ptolemaic bronzes, three Roman Egyptian tetradrachms, and a low grade COL NEM. His coins didn't hit the market until 2013, when I bought this lot.

My favorite of the group is this 48 mm Ptolemy II bronze, which needs a reshoot. I don't know exactly when this coin was acquired by Eaton other than mid to late 1800s.


EGYPT, Ptolemy II Philadelphus
285-246 BCE
AE48 mm, 91.8 gm
Obv: laureate head of Zeus Ammon right
Rev: eagle standing left on thunderbolt looking right, wings partly spread, E monogram between eagle's legs
Ref: Sear 7782, Svoronos 446
ex Professor James Eaton Collection

This tetradrachm of Gallienus has a provenance from the same general time as my Professor Eaton coins. It belonged to Benjamin Pierce Cheney (1815-1895), former director of Wells Fargo and owner of the company that became American Express.


EGYPT, Alexandria. Gallienus
year 13, CE 265/6
tetradrachm, 21 mm, 9.1 gm
Obv: Laureate, draped, and cuirassed bust right
Rev: AVTKΠΛIKΓAΛΛIHNOCCEB; eagle standing right, holding wreath in beak, palm over shoulder; L IΓ across field
Ref: Emmett 3806(13), R1
Ex Museum of Fine Arts, Boston 88.203 (accessioned 1888); Benjamin Pierce Cheney Collection

I like and am willing to pay a premium for coins with old, long, or interesting pedigrees. In addition to ex BCD and RBW, which many of us have, I own coins formerly belonging to Alexandre Carathéodory Pasha (1833-1906), Athos Moretti, Buddy Ebsen, Lawrence Adams, and others. A couple of my coins formerly belonged to museums (Museum of Fine Arts, Boston; Money Museum, Zurich). It's also fun to acquire coins formerly owned by CoinTalk friends. So far I have coins from @AncientJoe, @John Anthony, and @JBGood (and maybe others; apologies if I've left your name off the list).

My most extensively pedigreed coin came from @Ardatirion.


THESSALY, The Oitaioi
167-146 BC.
AR Hemidrachm (15mm, 2.30 g, 1h)
Herakleia Trachinia mint
Obv: Lion’s head left, spear in its jaws
Rev: OITAI downward to right, ΩN downward to left, Herakles standing facing, holding club in both hands
Ref: Valassiadis 9; BCD Thessaly II 494 (same obverse die)
Private sale, Bill Dalzell, March 2015
Ex BCD Collection (Classical Numismatic Group Electronic Auction 290), lot 57
Ex Peus 384 (2 November 2005), lot 199
Ex Vinchon (20 May 1959), lot 483
Ex M. Ratto 11 (16 May 1935), lot 239
Ex R. Ratto (4 April 1927), lot 1023
Ex Naville-Ars Classica V (18 June 1923), lot 1764