World silver crown-size type coin collectors?

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by Ag76, Feb 6, 2019.

  1. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    This is from a coin show from this weekend. It's nice to make a purchase in person.


    GERMANY, Sachsen-Albertinische Linie

    Johann Georg III. Elector, 1680-1691. AR Taler
    Dresden mint; Johann Koch, mintmaster.

    Obverse: Armored half-length bust right, holding sword; plumed helmet to right
    Reverse: coat-of-arms surmounted by eight crested helmets; I-K across lower field. .

    Note: Clauss & Kahnt 585b; Davenport 7642
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  3. wcg

    wcg Well-Known Member

    New arrival today and I am both intrigued and fascinated with it. Its a Lübeck Hochzeitstaler (wedding taler), but what makes it unusual is the fact that it is of 1/2 taler weight (13.9 g). It has no date; it is assumed to be struck circa 1580-1582 by mint master Joachim Dalemann. It considered a broad taler at 44 mm in size. Obv: Christ, wearing nimbus crown, standing between bride and groom. Rev: Christ, wearing nimbus crown, seated to left of table, seated around, bride, groom and two other guests; in foreground below, jars.

    Here is where it gets interesting. I can find only a couple of comparable auctions in, and neither have a specific reference. I poured through the 1905 edition of "Munzen und Medaillen Stadt und des Bisthums Lubeck" by Heinrich Behren online and found a reference on page 226. I believe I have a 1/2 weight version of Behrens 727b due to exact same obv & rev incriptions: HOMO NON SEPARARET QVOS DEVS CONIVNXIT (man would not separate what God has connected) IESVS CHRISTVS MACHET WASSER ZU GVDEM WEINN IOHA AZ (food blessing). The 1 taler weight is 51mm and 28g in weight with similar design.

    Typically these wedding talers are more common to Hamburg, so this is an unusual strike to say the least. Furthermore, the size and lack of attribution is a challenge, but I think the Behren is the best source given the info on the 1 taler and 2 taler versions. I would love to hear if anybody has any other ideas.

    1600-Lubeck-half-MS61-obv.jpg 1600-Lubeck-half-MS61-rev.jpg 1600(ND)-Lubeck-wedding-NGC61-obv-slab-1500dpi.jpg
  4. talerman

    talerman Well-Known Member

    Your attribution is correct but I cannot find any reference to a Half Taler. You seem to have found something special, perhaps unlisted. Is it really 44 mm in diameter ? It must be quite thin.

    Künker sold the Dr. Dieter Dummler Collection of Lübeck coins and medals in 2004 (Auction 90). The Wedding Taler with a weight of 28.11 g appears as Lot 218 with the reference Behrens 727a. The note says there are 9 different die variations. There is also a 1 1/2 Wedding Taler (Lot 217, 40.8 g) with the reference Compare with Behrens 727. There is no Half Taler.
  5. talerman

    talerman Well-Known Member

    I see Künker also sold a 2 Taler (49.53 mm, 57.89 g) in September 2020 (Auction 339, Lot 317). In the note it says a similar coin was sold by CNG (Auction 88, Lot 2115) with a wrong attribution to England on the occasion of James I's marriage to Anne of Denmark.

    I have not checked the mintmarks but I see Künker dates the Schautaler as early 17th century rather than c.1580-82.
  6. wcg

    wcg Well-Known Member

    Apologies to all for taking this down a rabbit hole. All the research I have done is inconclusive. I suspect the cataloguers at NGC, Keunker, ARS, and Leipziger all experienced the same result. Considering the fact that there are several varieties of the Behrens 727B (1T, 1.5T, 2T weights), it seems likely that there was also an unpublished ½ taler weight struck. There was one other example recently in a Leipziger 2020 auction ( with similar vague classification and lack of attribution, so I suspect more exist. Here is the Behrens reference snip:

    I don’t know if the date of 1580 is accurate, but this is repeatedly referenced by the other Behrens 727B pieces in auctions over recent years. I am assuming a ½ taler would have been struck at the same time unless it was a restrike. The crudeness of the planchet suggest to me that it might be original to the original strikes. Examples of other auctions for the larger 1 and 1.5 issues:

    1T (51mm; 28.6g) – Leipziger Oct 2018:

    1T (51mm; 28.58g) – Kunker May 2019: [interesting to see same piece reappear in Jan 2020 Kunker in NGC holder:]

    1T (28.36g) – Kunker March 2020:

    1T (28.15g) – Kunker Jun 2020:

    1T (28.82g) – Kunker Jun 2017:

    1.5T (36.82g) – Kunker Mar 2011:

    1T (28.79g) – Kunker Dec 2013:
    MIGuy, Seattlite86, Seated J and 2 others like this.
  7. talerman

    talerman Well-Known Member

    No apologies needed. We like numismatic rabbit holes.
    Seattlite86 and wcg like this.
  8. JLKVD

    JLKVD Active Member


    Just sent this coin to the 2022 NYINC Stack's Bowers Auction.

    1756 Holland Ducaton Flowered Edge PCGS MS63. Only one graded for the date and type and in general hard to find in this condition.
  9. jgenn

    jgenn World Crown Collector

    Well good luck but it sure looks like a keeper to me! Do you own a better silver rider?
  10. JLKVD

    JLKVD Active Member

    I don't but it isn't my main focus of my collection and I need the money to fund a major Chinese coin purchase.
  11. talerman

    talerman Well-Known Member

    AUSTRIA-HUNGARY Bohemia Emperor Rudolf II Reichstaler 1584 Budweis mint

    Austria-Hungary Rudolf II Taler 1584 Budweis LD obv 785.jpg Austria-Hungary Rudolf II Taler 1584 Budweis LD rev 790.jpg
  12. jgenn

    jgenn World Crown Collector

    Here's my silver rider, a core component of my world crown collection.

  13. JLKVD

    JLKVD Active Member

  14. KSorbo

    KSorbo Well-Known Member

    I pulled the trigger on this Hogmouth a couple days ago. It is my fourth pre-1700 Thaler sized coin, following my Saxony 3 Brothers Thaler, Dutch Lion Dollar and Archduke Ferdinand Hapsburg Thaler. I find these coins quite addictive, but it seems they are becoming a more expensive hobby as of late.

    It is my understanding that this Hogmouth, being from the Kremnitz mint in Hungary, is scarcer than the Austrian ones. Perhaps someone could weigh in on this. I found the history behind the “Hapsburg jaw” (aka Hogmouth) facial deformity quite interesting. Definitely a good reason why people shouldn’t marry their cousins.

    F9BB4FB1-E999-4B7E-BFAE-430CD9A4DBCF.jpeg 665A3606-921E-4F34-BA20-4A44A9C8C512.jpeg 73BF910F-6961-4C5E-8D87-A84DB3B4900F.jpeg
    MIGuy, talerman, Seattlite86 and 4 others like this.
  15. talerman

    talerman Well-Known Member

    Nice coin but Kremnitz issues are quite common. According to Krause World Coins 1601-1700 445000 of these Talers were struck just in 1695. Now, if you could find a Pressburg (in Hungarian Pozsony, in Slovak Presporok, today, Bratislava, the capital of Slovakia) issue, that would be something else.
    KSorbo likes this.
  16. BasSWarwick

    BasSWarwick Well-Known Member

    May I offer up a New Zealand

    1 Crown - George VI (Royal Visit) 1949
    Circulating commemorative coin: Proposed Royal Tour, 1949
    Silver (.500) • 28.28 g • ⌀ 38.61 mm
    KM# 22
    200,020 minted
    NZ Crown 1949 Obv.jpg NZ Crown 1949 rev.jpg
    Orange marks are on the holder
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  17. KSorbo

    KSorbo Well-Known Member

    It’s still a lot more interesting of a coin than a Morgan dollar with similar mintage…

    What is the overall survival rate of thalers from this period? Was there ever a time when large quantities were melted? Since not many of them are heavily worn it appears that they didn’t circulate that much, but I would expect that given what a large amount of money that would have been for the average person during the 1600’s. I’m just curious where the original mintages ended up over the centuries.
  18. expat

    expat Remember you are unique, just like everyone else Supporter

    Saxony Conventionsthaler 1763.
    Only year of issue, no idea of mintage figures
    Issuer Electorate of Saxony (Albertinian Line) (German states)
    Prince elector Frederick Christian (1763)
    Type Standard circulation coin
    Year 1763
    Value 4/3 Saxon thaler = 1 Conventionsthaler = 1/10 Cologne Mark (4/3)
    Currency Thaler (1493-1805)
    Composition Silver (.833)
    Weight 28.8 g
    Diameter 43 mm
    Shape Round
    Orientation Medal alignment ↑↑
    Demonetized Yes
    Number N# 32813
    References KM# 962, Dav GT II# 2677, Schnee# 1052, Buck# 14
    20211128_101052 (2).jpg 20211128_101118 (2).jpg
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  19. talerman

    talerman Well-Known Member

    I have not seen any data on this but in any case so many different Talers were struck it would be impossible to generalise. Davenport lists 1904 different German secular Talers struck in the 1600s plus 994 struck by cities and ecclesiastical rulers. He also lists 2000 Talers and similar crown-sized coins issued in the rest of Europe in the 17th century. They range from presentation pieces struck in minute quantities (normally in very good condition if you find one) to large mintages of coins for circulation struck by major states. Although the average person rarely saw a Taler, they were needed for trade and government (especially military) expenditure. Some did indeed get melted and were used to strike new coins. Austria-Hungary, one of the great powers at the time, struck very large numbers of Talers for use in its extensive territories and most are still quite common in a variety of grades.
    BasSWarwick, Mr. Flute and KSorbo like this.
  20. talerman

    talerman Well-Known Member

    Germany Bishopric of RATZEBURG Christoph of Mecklenburg Taler (32 Schilling) 1581

    Christoph, 6th son of Albrecht VII, Duke of Mecklenburg, was born in 1537. He became Administrator of the Bishopric of Ratzeburg (1554-92) at the age of 17 and and co-adjutor of the Archbishopric of Riga ((1555-69) at the age of 18. Jobs for the boys !

    Happy Christmas to all and best numismatic wishes for 2022 !

    Ratzeburg Bishopric Christoph v Meck Taler 1581 obv 914.jpg Ratzeburg Bishopric Christoph v Meck Taler 1581 rev 915.jpg
    Seated J, Chris B, longshot and 5 others like this.
  21. Guilder Pincher

    Guilder Pincher Well-Known Member

    I'll share one I bought this year. Dutch Republic, Utrecht province, 3 gulden 1794. There's some nice toning and contrast on this coin that pops when the light hits it just right.
    DSC_3312_00001_copy_1357x1357.jpg DSC_3317_00001_copy_1357x1357.jpg
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