World silver crown-size type coin collectors?

You know, I was rather impressed when I saw the drawings in the book. It was incredibly well done, especially for that time! I'm afraid this book was likely never translated. As it is, it's in old German, and it's focused specifically on German medals. I do happen to be fluent in German, should you ever need a hand on something you'd like to understand.

 

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Interesting discussion. There are certainly about 50 shades of grey between Talers and Medals. I often use PaulTudor's description Medallic Taler (or Medallic 1 1/2 Taler or 2 Taler etc.).

First, you have the piéforts, the heavier large denominations of conventional Talers struck for presentation to dignitaries. Here is a 1659 3 Ducaton (96.63 g) of Philip IV of Spain from Flanders (Dav.4455).



Then there are the numerous other Talers in Davenport struck for a specific occasions, generally in small quantities mainly for presentation purposes.

Here is a 2 Taler (Dav. 7596) struck by Johann Georg of Saxony in 1611 to commemorate the Vicariate after the death of Emperor Matthias. During the interregnum before the election of a new emperor the Holy Roman Empire was ruled by two Vicars. The Duke and Elector of Saxony came traditionally to be the Vicar in areas operating under Saxon law (Saxony, Westphalia, Hanover and northern Germany).


This is a Taler (Dav. 4362) struck by the city of Elbing after Poland regained a large part of the Baltic coast including Elbing from Sweden under the Treaty of Stuhmsdorf (20 Sept. 1635). The Polish king, Wladyslaw IV, came to Elbing on Feb. 11 1636 to receive the city's homage. This Taler was struck for the occasion. It is unusual in that it has two dates: the date of the treaty, 1635, and the date when the coin was struck, 1636.


Churchmen also issued commemorative Talers. Here is a Medallic 2 Guldiner (55.30 g), the so-called 2 Radiana-Guldiner, struck by Archbishop Matthaus Lang von Wellenburg of Salzburg for the 1521 consecration of the chapel of St. Radiana he had had built at Wellenburg (Dav. 8156). According to the legend, Radiana (c.1300) died at Wellenburg Castle after being attacked on her way home by wolves



There are numerous other commemorative Talers in Davenport. A large number are Death Talers, typically with a reverse packed with biographical data.

Here is a 1633 Death Taler of Christian the Elder of Brunswick-Luneburg-Celle (Dav.6482).




Another category of Medallic Talers are handsome Talers struck in very small quantities by aristocrats of the Holy Roman Empire who had the mint right but not sufficient territory to justify a proper coinage. Davenport's European Crowns 1700-1800 is full of them:

D. 1186 Karl Ludwig von Dietrichstein Taler 1726 500 minted in Vienna
D.1187 Nikolas Joseph von Esterhazy Taler 1770 406 minted in Vienna
D.1189 Johann Joseph von Khevenhüller-Metsch Taler 1771 200 minted in Vienna
D.1190 Franz Josef Maximilian von Lobkowitz Taler 1794 300 minted in Vienna
D.1194 Wenzel von Paar Taler 1794 250 minted in Vienna

There are also some Italian ones:

D.1358 Antonio da Barbiano, lord of Belgiojoso Scudo 1769
D.1490 Giovanni Domenico, marchese of San Georgio Scudo 1732
D.1491 & his son Giocomo Francesco, marchese of San Georgio Scudo 1753

On the next two, Davenport includes them but states "possibly only a medal." Apparently the mint right had been rescinded before they were struck.

D.1426 Tommaso Obizzo, marchese of Orciano Scudo 1791
D.1427 Tommaso Obizzo, marchese of Orciano Scudo 1796

Even odder, Davenport includes a Taler dated 1793 struck in the name of Wolfgang Franz von Orsini-Rosenberg (Dav.1192) in 1853, long after he was dead. This is clearly a commemorative issue but the reverse has a very normal money legend, MONETE NOVA AD NORMAM CONVENTIONIS, new money according to the Convention Standard.

Italy also had some commemorative Talers which appear in Davenport. For example, Dav.8324: a Medallic Scudo struck in 1593 by Doge Pasquale Cicogna of Venice to commemorate the erection of a fortress in Palmanova.

 

CONTINUING ON MEDALLIC TALERS

As PaulTudor pointed out, Krause has a more liberal approach to including Medallic Talers than Davenport.

Here is a Medallic Taler struck in 1588 by the City of Strasbourg to commemorate an alliance with the Swiss cantons of Zurich and Berne (KM.MB 291, not listed in Dav.):



And here is a Strasbourg Shooting Taler struck in 1576 for a shooting festival with visitors from Zurich (KM.MB.285, not listed in Davenport) :



This, of course, brings us into the whole world of medallic Shooting Talers, minted in Germany and especially Switzerland to commemorate Schützenfeste ("Marksmen's festivals").

The Germanic world is also known for its Schautaler (show Talers), struck to the standard of a fine medal. These do not in principle appear in Dav. or KM, although they usually have the weight and size of a Taler.

Here is one struck by Bogislaw XIV, Duke of Pomerania, in 1635 (27.30 g):

 

CONCLUDING ON MEDALLIC TALERS

Here is a medallic Schautaler struck by Lorenz von Bibra, Bishop of Würzburg, in 1511 (29.49 g). It is in fact the first Würzburg Taler of any kind. Note the high medallic relief of the bust:



Here is a 1694 2 Taler (58.36 g) of Anselm Franz von Ingelheim , Archbishop of Mainz, with medallic relief:




Finally, there are strikes which, even if struck with Taler weights and size and sometimes called Medallic Talers, are clearly medals by their subject matter.

Here is such a Medallic Taler struck in 1545 with the bust of Emperor Charles V on the obverse and his son, the future Philip II of Spain, on the reverse:

Finally, here is a 1531 Half Taler of Lübeck (14.27 g) which, despite the city arms and Imperial arms at the bottom of the obverse, is clearly a medal with a religious theme (King David on the obverse, Male and female figures climbing two ladders to heaven on the reverse). We are now clearly in the world of medals, many of which have weights not conforming to any monetary standard.

 

MEDALLIC TALERS - Postscript on Löser

One important category of medallic multi-talers I did not mention, and should have, are the Löser struck by the Dukes of Brunswick. These are listed in Davenport's Large Size Silver Coins of the World. They are not medals but are very medallic in style.

According to Henry Grunthal's preface to Davenport's book, the first of these multiple Talers was issued in 1574 by Duke Julius of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel. At that time the output of the silver mines in the Harz Mountains began to increase. Duke Julius had the original idea of using these great masses of silver to create a permanent fund for the exigencies of war. He issued an order that each property owner should purchase one of these large coins, the size of the coin depending on the individual's wealth. They were struck in denominations from 1 1/4 up to 16 Talers. The owners of these larger than crown size pieces were expected to produce these coins upon demand in exchange for smaller debased currency. The Duke thus had a considerable sum of money at his disposal in case of war. For this reason the coins were named "Julius Löser" (Redeemers), as indicated on the reverse of the 1574 issues, where the legend - "Genandt, Brunswigs, Julius Loser" - is inscribed.

Here is a 2 Taler Löser struck by one of Julius' successors, August II the Younger, to celebrate his 88th birthday in 1666. As is typical of Löser, it has an elaborate medallic design and is struck on a broad flan (63 mm). No value is indicated; that has to be deduced from the weight (57.42 g).

 

Fascinating story and I am in love with that reverse!!

 

Mexico 8 Reales 1777, 40mm, 27.07g. The cleaning of this coin is absolutely tragic. The chop marks are fascinating.

 

@talerman: Amazing! Many thanks for taking the time to elaborate. I am going to have to read and re-read these threads to soak it all up. I have honestly never seen many of these pieces and I am utterly fascinated.

 

You are correct on both counts.

 

Neither have I and I am also.

 

1675 8 mark Denmark,39.65 grams

 

@talerman Again, awesome pieces!I know that all your talers are next level, but there's one that i knew as soon as i saw it that it's at the very top, Frankfurt's first taler!Never heard of a 3 ducaton until now to be honest!Great info,i'm very grateful to be able to learn so many new things and admire the beautiful coins posted on these pages!

 

I've been trying to post only crown-sized coins, but this one is my favorite silver coin, larger than a crown.

Teutonic Order, 1614 Doppeltaler, NGC AU53, DAV #A5854, 58.20g

 

Italy DESANA Antonio Maria Tizzone Tallero n.d. ((1630-41) Copy of Taler of Ferdinand I before he became Emperor(1531-58)

This coin is in poor condition but it is interesting and rare. Desana, like many small states in northern Italy, struck numerous coins which were copies of widely-circulated and accepted coins of other states, to get their own coins accepted. Often, of course, they did not have the standard silver content, making the coins very profitable if they could get them accepted. I do not know the silver content of this coin. The weight is a pretty standard 27.94 g. At least it is not a complete forgery. While the obverse has the bust of Ferdinand I and his titles, the reverse legend has been changed to NVMVS. ARG. IMP. COMITIS. DECIANE, identifying the coin as being a DESANA issue. Also, the arms on the eagle's breast are those of Desana (3 candle-like firebrands, although it is so worn you can hardly see them) rather than Austria or another Habsburg territory. However, Antonio Maria must have known it was a bit dodgy since his name is not on the coin and the bust is of a long dead emperor, so the coin could be blamed on an earlier Desana count.

 

Here's my rarest italian tallero/80 soldi,only a few pieces known,some in the royal collection of Vittorio Emanuele and in the Sforza Numismatic Cabinet. It was issued in Bozzolo by Scipione Gonzaga between 1616-1618,mintmaster, Giovanni Cortella,a coin minted for trading with Levant, according to Lorenzo Bellesia.

 

This is a fascinating coin I have never seen before. I am very envious.

 

I find it very interesting because Bozzolo is really small, also Scipione was a
condottiere apparently!As far as i managed to find out,one piece was sold in 1976 and another one around 1896!

 

Austria Taler, Maria Theresia 1780 restrike, 28g

 

Yeah, I've got one of these. You see these everywhere, and they're all restrikes.
I'd like to see what an original looks like.
Does the X at the end of the date denote the restrike, or is that X on the original also?

 

X is also on the original. It indicated that the coin had been struck according to the silver standard adopted in 1751. The original (but also some restrikes) has no mintmaster's initials below the bust. I can't read the ones on this restrike. The first semi-official restrikes were struck with the authorization of Maria Theresia's son, Joseph II. in Günzburg and bear the initials SF {for their mint officers Tobias Schoebl and Joseph Faby). I believe some later restrikes at other places may have copied this. Other mints had their own mintmaster's initials. There are minor stylistic variations It is a very complicated subject.