World Coins GTG

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by Chris B, Feb 26, 2021.


What grade is your guess?

Poll closed Feb 28, 2021.
  1. VF30

    1 vote(s)
  2. VF35

    1 vote(s)
  3. XF40

    2 vote(s)
  4. XF45

    2 vote(s)
  5. AU53

    2 vote(s)
  6. AU55

    3 vote(s)
  7. AU58

    0 vote(s)
  8. MS60

    0 vote(s)
  9. MS62

    2 vote(s)
  10. MS63

    2 vote(s)
  1. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    I see these posted all the time on the US coins side of CT. Thought I would post a little pole for fun.

    I picked up this piece because it is relatively scarce and doesn't come up for sale often. On there are 3 known sales. I'm sure there are others in private sales. It is not in the best of condition as you can see. Part of the reason I made the purchase was that I thought the grade was interesting.

    So, take a guess if you like and I will post the actual grade Saturday evening. The only thing I will add is that it is straight graded.


    German States Besancon 2 Groschen 1623

    Obverse: City arms in circle
    Obverse Legend: +MONETA. CIV. IMP. BISONT.
    Reverse: Laureatee bust to left divides date in circle, value (2) in oval cartouche below
    Reverse Legend: +CAROLVS. V. IMPERATOR.

    Composition: Billon
    Diameter: 29mm
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2021
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  3. longshot

    longshot Enthusiast Supporter

    Going with 53.
    Chris B likes this.
  4. Lueds

    Lueds Active Member

    Nice coin. Tough to grade imo.

    Seems to be a weak strike due to lack of material for the full sized coin.

    I compared the details on it to a Massachusetts Pine Tree silver (Being a contemporary of sorts to this baby) and the lettering , which seems to have the strongest strike, is probably closest to an AU55.

    A good chance I'm waaaaaay off but fun none the less to have a crack at it.

    EDIT: I will add, nice purchase, decent price for the condition, seeing NGC gives massive $$$ for one in lower grades. Who'd a thunk it....
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
    Chris B likes this.
  5. Robert Ransom

    Robert Ransom Well-Known Member

    I changed my vote to XF45. It is circulated and has a few clips.
    Chris B likes this.
  6. spirityoda

    spirityoda Coin Junky Supporter

  7. Robidoux Pass

    Robidoux Pass Well-Known Member

    A grade on these older coins with a weak strike seems to get a lot of leeway. I'll go with XF40.
    Chris B likes this.
  8. Steve66

    Steve66 Coin People

    I will go with XF45
    Chris B likes this.
  9. Bradley Trotter

    Bradley Trotter Supporter! Supporter

    In that case, I'll go with an answer outside of the box. Granted, I'm probably incorrect, but I could see NGC giving this particular coin a grade many would find unwarranted.

    Chris B likes this.
  10. Coinsandmedals

    Coinsandmedals Well-Known Member

    I may be entirely off, but I see a decent amount of underlying luster. The lack of detail seems to be a weak strike combined with a less than perfect planchet. This is the first example I’ve encountered which makes it hard to judge, but I think it’s uncirculated. TPGs, generally speaking, do not often assign an MS-60 grade and MS-61 was not an option. That said, I will go with MS-62.

    Cool coin, thanks for sharing!
    Chris B likes this.
  11. ddddd

    ddddd Member

    Definitely challenging and I’m guessing the grade is fairly high although most would think it is much lower on first glance.

    I went with AU 55...could be MS but I’m struggling to tell if there is evidence of wear or not.
    Chris B and longshot like this.
  12. Robert Ransom

    Robert Ransom Well-Known Member

    @Chris B This coin intrigued me, so I found a few photos which I will post after the reveal.
    Chris B likes this.
  13. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    I appreciate all of the responses and hopefully will get more before the reveal. I understand the wide range of opinions but don't want to say much more right now so that I don't give away too much.
  14. spirityoda

    spirityoda Coin Junky Supporter

    When I look up your coin in my 2003 3rd edition 17th century World Coin Catalog it only shows 1 date for that denomination 1624 for 2 Groschen in German States/Besancon ???
    Robert Ransom likes this.
  15. Robert Ransom

    Robert Ransom Well-Known Member

    There are other sources, but I said I would withhold until after the reveal.
    spirityoda likes this.
  16. Anthony Mazza

    Anthony Mazza Active Member

  17. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    OK, time for the reveal.

    This coin isn't actually in my hands yet as one of our guessers has figured out. Once it is I expect it to show more luster than the photos show.


    In my opinion, this coin is a perfect example of why the grading system in place doesn't work for all coins. I truly believe it is an uncirculated example but because of striking issues, it wouldn't be appealing to most collectors. I collect German States coinage and did not have a coin from Besancon so took advantage of picking up a reasonably priced coin.

    This is a scarce coin. On the highest value they list is for XF at $550. I call BS on that. As I mentioned earlier, I found 3 other sales of this variety but none of them were for over $100. As an example, the below coin (not mine), sold for $40 by Heritage in 2019. As you can see it has striking issues as well but is still a more attractive piece. Heritage described this one as uncirculated as well.

    GerBes162306 Reference.jpg
  18. spirityoda

    spirityoda Coin Junky Supporter

    MS 62 ? How in the world did they come up with that grade ?
    Chris B likes this.
  19. The Eidolon

    The Eidolon Well-Known Member

    Very interesting example, thanks! Do you think those things which look like horizontal scratches on the obverse were present before striking? For early modern coins, I have distinguishing between a weak strike and wear on a casual glance. I don't tend to even think about defects in the blank before striking.
  20. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    Because they are basing the grade on wear and circulation only. I'm a big fan of how NGC grades there ancients and would love to see them use that on non "modern" coins.
  21. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    I wonder that as well. I also see several spots in the fields that appear to remnants of a host coin. None of the other examples I have found show this so my feeling is that this is unlikely.

    I don't know much about the history of this area but it is not out of the realm of possibility that less than standard planchets were used.
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