Women in Numismatics

Very briefly, I think you're setting up a straw man to knock down here. Nobody's suggesting requirements of numerical equality. But yes, it would be embarrassingly retrograde to have a panel on women in numismatics that consists entirely of men. Just as it would be to have a panel on black history consisting entirely of white people, or LGBT history consisting entirely of straight people. And entitling a lecture "Ladies of Rome"? Please! I'd like to see one called "Gentlemen of Rome"! Again, if you don't understand why this is true, or why it would make women feel marginalized, and far less likely even to try to be present and involved, it's not my job to persuade you. I'm not here to get in an argument with you or anyone.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Oh I don’t disagree the trend is moving away- as an almost History major before switching to Economics 3 years in I can attest to that. But I think the issue still potentially stands - by moving toward the ordinary people, as you say, who are the towering figures for a woman to look up to? Ordinary people are all well and good, as 99.99% of us are them, but at days end what inspires people about Rome is not usually the ordinary people. It’s the larger than life ones, and those are still predominantly skewed toward men in our teachings, and dare I also say in our media.

Throwing an edit on here to say- I am aware this post could come across as mansplaining but I hope it is not perceived that way as that is not at all my intent!

 

I don't feel marginalized or excluded by the fact that I'm one of only a small number of women who participate here. Nobody seems to have assumed that I don't know what I'm talking about, and nobody has treated me with any lack of respect. And I'm not someone who is hesitant to speak her mind! However, at least for me, it's a great deal easier to be in the tiny minority in an online group than it would be in person, where I'm much more likely to feel shy, intimidated, and/or somewhat overwhelmed. (Part of that is the fact that I'm quite small, only 5' 2", and don't enjoy being in a group of men who generally tower over me -- whether it's in a crowded elevator or on a crowded convention floor.)

An example is how I've felt every time I've attended the NYINC -- perhaps a half-dozen times in the last 20+ years? (It must be that long, because I remember going when it was held at the World Trade Center.) Most recently, when I went to the NYINC this past January (it seems a lifetime ago!) -- the first time I'd been there in a few years -- there were only a handful of women, including me, out of hundreds of patrons. And yes, even though nobody did anything to make me uncomfortable, and nobody ignored me when I asked to see, e.g., a dealer's Roman Republican coin stock, I felt a bit uncomfortable and overwhelmed nonetheless. It seemed very noticeable to me -- and I doubt that many male patrons noticed this -- that there were more women behind the dealers' tables than in front of them, but that not many seemed to be the actual persons in charge, as opposed to being assistants. In fact, several dealers, who shall remain nameless. seem to have decided to have very young, thin, fashionably-dressed, conventionally attractive women standing there to look pretty, and to say "I have to wait until ____ is free to give you a price on that." Or perhaps I'm just being cynical, and they were all devoted numismatic scholars rather than interns being used to attract male customers. But as I interpreted it, right or wrong, it simply increased my discomfort.

As the column says, "I know how difficult it is to bring women to numismatic events. What I have always heard is that there are just too many men." A few people commenting in this thread have expressed disbelief or lack of understanding about that statement, but please don't underestimate what it feels like. Unfortunately, it can be a vicious circle, and can, by itself, inhibit the further involvement of women in numismatics.

 

I am really trying to find a time when I felt excluded or uncomfortable in this hobby. Everytime I go to a show or my LCS, I've been helped the same as anyone else in the area. It can be obvious that I may be the only female customer there but I have to check myself as to whether I'm making the distinction or is the male across the table making it. I can't find a time when a line has been crossed or I've been treated like 'the little lady' that doesn't know enough. I HAVE been treated that way in my military life and my engineering career. I've been in female-dominated clubs too, quilting and gardening, and the acceptance is no different.
I show my coins to female friends and there is no interest, hey, no worries. To each their own. I've seen the amound of females in engineering increase greatly since I went to school. I say give it time and more women will be interested. Just my thoughts and thanks for the interesting posts.

 

My mother is a genealogist. She went to university to get a history degree and used what she learned about research to research families. I got a history degree as well and I became a teacher and you are right in a way. I wouldn't say we do not teach about the lives of the great men and woman but we also teach about what is was like to live in the past.

When I was younger there was a book I read that interested me more than any biography I have read before and since called 'Life in A.D. 1000'. It was a very interesting general overview of what the daily life of a person was like at this time. While it did deal with different classes of people, it discussed in detail what the daily life and times for the average person in Britain was like, daily habits, work, clothing, diet, etc....I would say teaching history combines important people, events and an understanding of life at that time. So teaching Texas history will certainly include specific people, places and events but also a portrait of life in Texas for the different types of people, different walks of life, at different periods from settlers, indigenous people, women, men, children, slaves, etc...

As for too many men in numismatics, that cannot be changed and I do understand what it is like to be intimidated. You can't stop men from being a part of it or from coming to shows but in my opinion, and this might sound insensitive, you need to get over it and do exactly what you want to do. Know that you have the right to be there just as much as anyone else. I have a feeling they may feel more intimidated by you in the end.

If the problem is feeling intimidated by the amount of a certain type of person then the problem is not something external but within you. Who cares if some booth has pretty women who know nothing as eye candy, that is almost every tradeshow I have ever been to. It's their right to do so and it is your right to be there and if you are there to buy, trust me, they will serve you or they will lose money....if you are there to learn...ask questions...as a woman in a majority male field (who is quite knowledgeable) I think you are in a good position to help pave the way for other women to take a more active role representing the field as we all know and have admitted, there is a lack of women representation, why not you. If you don't....certainly never let anyone intimidate you. Especially a bunch of old dusty numismatists.

 

(American) football is a great sport to watch. You get to look at coin catalogs most of the time because of all the interruptions in play. 60 minutes of clock play in 3 hours of running time and much of that is between plays. On the other hand, (real) football (a.k.a. soccer) is continuous action and you can't do anything but watch or you might miss the few seconds when something game-winning happens. Give me an action sport like (real) football. The Premier League rocks!

Is that one of those "guy things" men have been conditioned to like that women would do equally if it weren't for societal conditioning?

 

Excellent point. My daughters were solid players in sports: soccer (futball) and Softball (much more fun to watch than Yankees baseball). My oldest was always lined up as the power-hitter, as she seemed to always hit homeruns or triples. She was a monster at-bat. When it is ball-whacking sports, I enjoy College Women’s Softball. A lot of passion in play, and I am amazed at women’s fastball pitching!

LOL on American football. It was MUCH more fun to PLAY it than to watch. I had British friends that would call it “All-Fall-Down”.

HERE IS ROMAN FOOTBALL / FUTBALL


Roman Republic
42 BCE
Moneyer: L Livineius Regulus (one of 4 Moneyers that year! A quattuorvirate)
AR Denarius 3.7g, 19mm
Obv: Bare head of the praetor L. Livineius Regulus right
Rev: Gladiatorial scene; in foreground, one man attacks lion with spear; in back ground, second man with shield and sword attacks panther; on left, wounded boar; in exergue, L. REGVLVS
Ref: Sear 489; Crawford 494/30; Syd. 1112
Comment: bankers mark and scratch on obverse

 

@DonnaML, thanks for posting, although not always comfortable, I see value in respectful discussion to build perspective and lower barriers. Selfishly, I hope that history and coins attract a lot of diversity - as I expect that to increase the probability of the next insightful and interesting thesis, webpage, journal article, book, presentation, podcast, panel discussion or CT post.

I'll sidestep the football v. baseball v. (real) football discussion and post a coin. I would know a lot less about this coin if not for the research of Katerini Liampi, this coin is #18a from her article, published in a collection to celebrate the 65th birthday of Edith Schönert-Geiss.

Thessaly, Ekkarra, circa 325-320 BC, AE Chalkous
Obv: Laurel-wreathed, head of Zeus to the left in a circle of dots.
Rev: ΕΚΚΑΡ / ΡΕΩΝ, downward, Artemis standing in between, in three-quarter view to the left.

 

I have read all comments and I have found myself agreeing with some divergent perspectives. And although I do see hints of ideology in the framing of the "too many (white) males" approach, I do understand that some women who would otherwise be pursuing this interest see themselves discouraged by the overall atmosphere of shows et al. I have a daughter that I would like to pick up my interests, at least in a way that helps her grow as a person, so I have to ask: what should we, (white) males do to make the environment more women-friendly? What would the opposite of "too many (white) males" be? Less of us existing? Less of us pursuing this venue? How do you achieve this goal of less (white) males?

 

Not so much fewer men, but an effort to include/attract more women, when it comes to shows and conventions. How? I have no brilliant solutions. For panels and lectures, more of an affirmative effort to reach out to female numismatists, whether dealers, collectors, or scholars, or any combination of them. I know they're out there. Saying "no women applied" isn't a good excuse in any walk of life.

 

I am all for that, as it's a common sense approach to pretty much all fields and interests.

 

Just to make myself clear, it's not so much a question of being intimidated intellectually, or by my own lack of knowledge and experience, compared to "dusty old numismatists." After all, I've managed successfully to argue appeals before all-male panels of judges without feeling that way. Nervous ahead of time, yes; intimidated, no. (I'm fairly good at giving the impression of being more knowledgeable than I actually am!) It's more of a visceral thing about being a tiny minority as a woman (especially a small one) in a group. large or small*, consisting mostly of men. I can't help feeling that way, even at my age.

At this point, I think I'm pretty much going to bow out of further contributions to this thread, unless I feel that I have something really important to add. I've said everything I feel that I had to say, and being in my position commenting on this subject is a bit stressful.

* In some ways a small group is even worse. I can't imagine ever joining a coin club, partly for that reason. As well as the fact that historically I'm not much of a joiner in any context!

 

Rugby...I think everyone was really just working up to Rugby being the greatest sport.

 

@DonnaML.............................I think @seth77 has summarized it really well!
I actually don't understand the relevance of the thread or why you would ask the question?...........If I had a question it wouldn't matter if you had tits , a dick or a tail!....... One thing ....If I had a problem with identifying a coin you would be one of the first people I would ask....

 

I wonder if this (still lingering) dynamic of shows and clubs being male-dominated would not change with the rest of society, as it becomes more and more equal, inclusive and hopefully free. This is what comes to mind for instance when I see Israeli women and their attitudes, likely resulting from the fact that Israel opened up even the most male-dominated domain -- the army -- to the skills and perspectives that women bring to the table, achieving in the process both the empowerment of women and the evolution and diversification that new insights, interests and minds create inside a given structure/field.

I also think that many of us have more often than not the feeling that "just leaving things be" and "life's not fair/such is life" allows lots of individuals with an excuse to not try, not be interested, not be curious. The more people are actively involved in a field, especially one of high intellectual vocation, the better off that field is.

That being said, I have to admit that the "activist" approach of "less demographics X" does not feel inclusive nor positive. And to me it reminds of "class warfare" and all the nasty stuff brought by the collectivist ideologies of the 20th century.

 

You are correct that there don't seem to be any studies documenting the collecting differences between men and women to support a nature vs. nurture explanation. But similarly, there are no studies suggesting the opposite - that nurture is what discourages women from collecting coins, stamps, cars or sports memorabilia, etc.

I think that for most questions, the biological (evolutionary) explanation tends to dominate. Our bodies (and minds) represent the culmination of millions of years of adaption to our environments. Why do we get fat if we eat certain things? Evolution. Why does our lower back hurt if we sit down all the time? Evolution (we're not meant to do that). Absent any conclusive studies suggesting the opposite, I think the reason men collect certain things more than women is also likely to be biological. But of course, we can only speculate on the reasons.

Now, I'm about to be politically incorrect here, but I can't help it. History, if we're going to talk about, just wasn't p.c. That said, my guess is that men tended historically to acquire mates through their acquisition of resources and success in battle. Accordingly, we tend to be interested in things that represent "practice" for war like sports (and now video games). We tend to read more nonfiction and history (often military). No one would ask why men collect weapons at a far higher rate that women. I think coins, which often have a military aspect, as well as representing "money" (a resource in the purest sense), definitely fit more into things men are evolutionarily hard wired to obsess over.

Women were best positioned to pass on their genes through their attractiveness and political abilities (to manage their status in the household and family's status in the tribe). In keeping with this, if you look at what women tend to collect, it's often things that adorn their person (shoes, clothes), their homes (which would improve their political status within the tribe) or in a way represent their family/political management (scrapbooking).

None of this is to say anyone, male or female, should be discouraged from collecting anything they want. Any happiness people get from an activity they love should be celebrated and encouraged. But we also can't let political correctness blind us from the scientific fact that men and women are simply different biologically, which is likely to affect the kinds of activities in which they're going to be interested, on average.

 

Hail, yes! Love that sport. Used to go to several games when I was living in Wales. Was taken to the Wales England games for a couple years, and have gone to a couple Hong Kong Sevens... very fun.

 

There is nothing inherently "male" or "female" in coin collecting or numismatics in themselves, but there is something decisively "male" - to be more specific, heterosexual male - about the culture of coin collecting. It's a little bit ineffable and I can't quite put my finger on it, but the culture of coin shows just seems to permeate an unmistakable "maleness." The most obvious explanation is that often 90% of the people there are in fact male, so the collective culture probably reflects its aggregate members.

I felt the same mood when I used to attend sports cards shows years ago. And, when I was even younger, I sensed the same at model rocketry gatherings. I have also sniffed the same aura in the many IT departments that I have worked in over the years. Though I never sensed an actual attempt to exclude girls or women from such things, there always seemed be an implied and invisible "no girls allowed" sign at the entrance. Again, no one willingly put one there, but such gatherings had this "feeling" that no girl would ever dare set foot there. If one did appear, the girl might get labeled a "Tom Boy" or some such nonsense.

The strict and almost confining gender roles of the past arguably played a part in this. As the saying used to go "boys do boy things and girls do girl things." For some reason, coin collecting became a "male thing" and its overarching culture hasn't really changed. I think it's also fair to say, and I say this as a male-type person, that men generally tend to not excel in creating atmospheres and social cultures that are open to women.

The opposite also happens. As one of the few men in a local French reading group, I don't sense any of the "maleness" that I feel at coin shows. I feel something else that remains just as hard to define or pin down. Again, there is nothing "male" or "female" about reading French, but the group tends to overwhelmingly attract women. When I first started attending, maybe it was my imagination, but I swear that I received strange looks that felt like "why is he here?" No one made me feel uncomfortable or unwelcome at all, but I could tell that I wasn't a typical attendee. I just hoped that they didn't think that I was attending for salacious reasons, though some probably did, but I can read French and I didn't say or do anything that would imply that I was "on the prowl," so everything seemed fine. Nonetheless, I do still feel a little bit like an outsider and I often wonder if this is how some girls or women feel at coin shows, or sports cards shows or rocketry launches? No one seems to be trying to make a "male" or "female" culture around these things, it just seems to happen organically.

This is just based on my experience - I'm no expert on any of this - but American culture has traditionally been bifurcated pretty strongly into "male" and "female" segments. Once something gets associated with one of them, it often seems pretty difficult to alter it to accommodate the other. This situation extends well beyond coin collecting, but at some point coin collecting became associated with "male culture" and it has stayed that way not because anyone has maliciously outright tried to exclude women (well, some might have), but because the larger culture "works that way." These are the "unwritten rules" that we never really articulate to ourselves syntactically, but nonetheless they play a massive role in our lives and shape how we act, who we associate with and they also guide our interests. Obviously, to a degree this is all a generalization, but it seems to explain, at least partially, many of the "male" and "female" things that seem endemic to American culture. I think parts of the up and coming generations will attempt to tear down some of these walls and some in the older generations may not like this. Some younger people that I have interacted with seem to have less of a sense of "guy's things" versus "girl's things." In fact, at a rocket launch that I attended last year, a young girl made a large pink and purple "Princess Rocket" covered in flowers and ponies and it launched beautifully into the sky and she was ecstatic. I was very happy to see numerous club members, many of them middle-aged cigar-sucking alpha males, personally encourage and congratulate her.

I feel that the answer to the male dominance of coin collecting lies somewhere in that experience at the rocketry range. These men went out of their way to genuinely include a little girl in their "manly" enterprise. The genders probably just need to interact more outside of a "dating" context and begin to explore what each "culture" has to offer. In the end, the situation seems to stem more from heavily imposed "gender cultures" than from anything genetic or biological. It will take empathy, courage and tolerance to break down these barriers on all sides.

 

Seriously, you don't have to be vulgar. That's the second time you've done that with me in what I assume is a misplaced attempt to be humorous. I accepted your apology the first time, and I'm sure there was no ill intent, but come on already.

And I didn't ask any questions. I posted a column that I thought was interesting. I made no comment in posting it beyond that. Any questions in this thread were asked by others. If you don't think the column is relevant, you weren't required to read it. And I do appreciate the compliment; don't get me wrong!

 

Thanks for being empathetic.