Will this Numerically grade by NGC???

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by StevenHarden, Feb 26, 2014.

  1. StevenHarden

    StevenHarden Well-Known Member

    First time sending anything to NGC like this. This is an 1875 Proof 20 cent piece that was discovered lying loose in a mixed bag of 25 cent seat quarters. I am curious to know if NGC might reject this because of hairline scratches or maybe color or something. Anyone with information please respond. Also, if you have an idea what u think this might grade out that would be of interest as well. Overall, I would like to know if this might receive a numerical grade, a details grade, and possibly even a cameo designation. Sorry ahead of the time for not quite perfect photographic skills, but hopefully these will do.

    NOTE: While it may not appear so in the pictures, all surfaces on this coin are WHITE. There is no discernible toning on this coin. The appearance of yellow toning is from the light source used in photography. Also, fields are VERY mirror-like, being able to clearly see 2.5 inches reflection on a ruler

    Thank you.

    P Obverse Straight On.jpg

    P Reverse Straight On.jpg

    P Obverse at Angle.jpg

    P Reverse at Angle.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

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  3. JPeace$

    JPeace$ Coinaholic

    That's a nice find. I don't collect this series, but first off, I don't think this is a proof. The edges have beveling; therefor, it can't get a Cameo designation. It could get PL though. There appear to be hairlines on the surfaces, which might be from improper cleaning. If that is the case, then it won't grade.

    I hope collectors of this series chime in and provide their opinions. Looks like a very nice coin.
     
  4. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    I'm thinking it will get a details, cleaned holder. Part of the lines look to be die polish and others look to be from cleaning.
     
    dwhiz and definer like this.
  5. Mainebill

    Mainebill Bethany Danielle

    I think its a proof but a cleaned one a details grade for this one
     
  6. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    nice find, congrats.

    [Hopefully you made out.]


    Oh, and details.
     
  7. Hotpocket

    Hotpocket Supreme Overlord

    Looks cleaned to me. Lots of surface hairlines. Probably grade as Improperly Cleaned.
     
  8. JPeace$

    JPeace$ Coinaholic

    Bill, why do you think it's a proof? I think the rims show it to be a business strike; however, I'd like to get your opinion and learn more about the series.
     
  9. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title] Supporter

    I think it's a proof...the rims look squared and the details are excellent. I'm going to go against the popular opinion here and say it will grade. I'm not seeing hairlines running across the devices...only the fields. That makes me wonder if they are hairlines from the die polishing not from a cleaning. I would want to see the coin in hand, but I think it might grade.

    Amazing find by the way.
     
  10. harris498

    harris498 Accumulator

    Amazing coin! I do, however, think that they will find it 'Improperly Cleaned'.
     
  11. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    There are no die polish lines on that coin - die scratches, yes there are a couple. The rest is the result of harsh cleaning.

    A Proof ? I don't think so.
     
  12. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title] Supporter

    How can you tell? Normally, I see cleaning lines run across the devices but I don't see that here. What am I missing?
     
  13. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    The fact that die polish lines are always basically straight, parallel to each other, and cannot criss-cross.

    And there are many harshly cleaned coins where they (the cleaner) were careful not to run across the devices.
     
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  14. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title] Supporter

    OK. Is that because the when they polished the die they only went in one direction?
     
  15. JPeace$

    JPeace$ Coinaholic

    I agree with you on this point as well. I don't think the rims are flat enough nor squared enough for a proof coin. Is that your take?
     
  16. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    There have been many, many, threads where I have explained how dies were polished. Short and sweet the result is what I said above.

    Partially. The rest of it is that business strikes of just about all denominations from that time period, when struck with fresh dies, are well known for being PL or DMPL.
     
  17. StevenHarden

    StevenHarden Well-Known Member

    Hello Everyone,

    First of all, I want to thank everyone for their replies so far on this coin. I believe that a lot of the debate about this coin is centered around the imagery that you are all seeing. When I get home this evening I will attempt to photograph this coin in a way so that you can see the Proof quality of this coin. It honestly looks MUCH better than what these pictures are showing. Any specific angles/views/lighting that any of you might suggest to get a detailed photograph of this coin would be very much appreciated. I am still interested in any further discussion on this as well, but like I say, it will take until later this evening before I will be able to post more photographs of this coin.

    Again, Thank You to All
     
  18. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title] Supporter

    I honestly think the photos are pretty good. I was fooled by this coin...but now that we have discussed I too believe this is not a proof. One thing you have to remember is, in this era coins that were struck with new dies tended to have very proof like surfaces with mirrored fields and cameo devices. I now believe this is such a coin. It's a business strike with proof like qualities due to it being struck with fresh dies.
     
  19. JPeace$

    JPeace$ Coinaholic

    Thanks Doug. Yes, I understand the relationship with fresh dies and PL/DPL surfaces. In my initial analysis, I noted i thought these were PL and not a proof. I also noted improper cleaning.
     
  20. Soiled

    Soiled Everyone has coin Avatars. I chose space.

    Beautiful coin. It does appear to have been cleaned though. You probably will get a AU or BU details rating from NGC.
     
  21. Mainebill

    Mainebill Bethany Danielle

    Not a series I'm expert In But I felt it a proof by the rims (at least on my screen ) looking relatively squared the die polish lines more pronounced on the fields ALSo see cleaning lines on all and the great strike if it's not a proof it's an exceptionally prooflike business strike that's undfortunatelty been cleaned I hope he sends it to NGC/pcgs so we can find out I'd love to see this one in hand
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
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