Will photographs of graded coins defeat counterfeiters?

You need to follow the work of @Jack D. Young and @TypeCoin971793

Over the past couple of years, they have documented a number of coins and slabs which I would have never questioned. Extraordinarily convincing fakes - the "coins" are nearly perfect, and the "slabs" are very well made.

They would fool 80% of collectors on this site, I'd wager.

 

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Thanks for the heads up, duly noted!

 

NGC has been taking pictures of each coin slabbed (full slab pics) since 2008 when the first counterfeit slabs entered the market.

PCGS recently announced that they would do the same thing, but have not implemented it yet.

Here is an article I wrote on the subject of counterfeit slabs. In it I cover the security features employed by NGC and PCGS and the loopholes which the counterfeiters exploit. Your questions will be answered in depth there.

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/an...erfeit-slab-epidemic-scope-and-advice.355364/

 

It hasn’t put the counterfeiters out of business because they haven’t taken photos of ALL graded coins.

I have dozens of PCGS & NGC graded coins with no photos.

Of course it hasn’t defeated the counterfeiters.

My point was that if they took photos of ALL graded coins it would defeat the counterfeiters.

 

And how do you propose the TPGs do that?

 

All too often success, (in this case, defeating
counterfeiters, ) becomes the complacency that leads to failure down the road.

In the beginning of WWll German U-Boats did'nt have many "natural predators" to keep them worried. They even named their complacency "the happy times."

The Allies could not take the high losses U-boats were causing, so they used convoy tactics and fast, low flying aircraft to hit U-boats on top that were recharging, refueling, or replenishing. The British Mosquito was particulary good at that. By the end of the war U-boats had taken 80% losses.

IMO, there has to be forgers out there to keep us worried. The ideal scenario would be a vermin population low enough that they don't threaten to run us over but high enough to keep us worried and looking for them.

Yes, it would be wonderful to eliminate them all. Then the public would be confident and rush in to buy slab-o-Morgans or whatever, and send values to the moon. And then what? The forgers will see how much they can now make and double down like Marines in hell regrouping, until they defeat whatever it was that defeated them.

There must be a menace to keep everyone worried.

 

Well for one by making it FREE when some pays to have a coin graded instead of charging extra for True View photography or whatever they call it.

Another way would be by allowing people to send in their already graded coins to be photographed for the website at NO charge.

Yes it would cost PCGS & NGC a lot of money to do this stuff for free but it’s their reputation on the line. The Chinese counterfeiters are faking their products and that means they need to spend more money to prevent it.

Just like it costs companies a lot of money to keep their online websites safe & secure.

 

This isn’t really about counterfeit slabs.

It’s more about the fact that counterfeit slabs wouldn’t be able to fool anyone if every graded coin had a high definition photograph taken of the obverse & reverse so people could see exactly what it looks like and compare it to the coin in front of them.

If both do not match it tells the customer that the coin being sold to them is fake even if they don’t know a thing about counterfeits, slabs or coins in general.

 

It might slow them down a bit but I don't feel it would ever defeat them. No way the TPG's are going to image all the coins in collectors and dealers hands for free. The cost would be off the chart. It's great that most of the coins being graded now are being imaged. I didn't know that PCGS is imaging all coins. Thought you had to pay for that. I lost track of all the changes over the past few years.

 

Well I mean they should at least do it cheaply. Or maybe at a big discount if the coin is over say $1000 to help prevent counterfeiters from faking “big money” coins.

Being scammed with a fake MS-62 1938D Buffalo nickel is far less damaging as being scammed by say a fake MS66 1878 CC Morgan Dollar.

Better yet maybe offer that one service as a paid service but NOT requiring someone to have a membership to use it.

That would make their job a lot smaller since a majority of coins are under $1,000 and they’d still be able to make a little bit on it since it doesn’t take any real numismatic experience to take a photograph. The grader doesn’t have to do it. They just send it off to be photographed after it’s graded so it won’t slow them down much. A machine could take photos 24/7 at high speed and any unskilled technician would just have to set the coin on the machine. A 5 year old could do that.

Or they could put the burden on the seller. If a seller wants to convince a buyer their coin is real they’ll have to send it in to get photographed.

Sellers who chose not to have their coins photographed could still sell them but people would just have to prove they are real some other way. Most likely by having a good reputation and offering some sort of return policy.

I just know as a buyer myself if I see a photo of a coin matches the coin in my hand down to the toning and individual scratches and dings I know it’s real without having any knowledge of being able to detect counterfeits.

 

NGC has been doing this for 12 years. PCGS will start soon.

The reason they don’t want to do this is because the coins have left their hands and control. What if someone sends in a deceptive fake slab? What if someone sends in a slab that has been gassed (artificial toning)? What if someone switched out the coins? The TPGs would be liable for any of these they miss. That would mean that they would be effectively grading the coins again along with verifying the holder. That would grind normal grade submissions to a halt.

It would probably bankrupt both businesses. Then we will no longer have any top-tier grading services protecting the hobby. Be careful what you wish for.

It is precisely about counterfeit slabs.

They aren’t just yet

 

It’s not worthless if it’s the TPGs who take the photos.

If someone submits say a Bust Half Dollar to PCGS and it’s graded XF40 and then they take a photo of it and give it a certification number anyone who later wants to buy that coin can compare what they see in their hands to the photos PCGS took.

No counterfeiter could make a coin that is an exact match with the exact toning, wear, contact marks etc., to the real coin.

 

The circled marks are consistent between the images. They can be used to positively ID the coin.

 

Those coins don’t look the same.

You can tell just from the toning.

Look at how in the toned one Georgius has mostly blue toning around it.

Look how there is blue toning in the ear.

Look how the tip of the mustache is white and not toned.

A counterfeiter would have to do all the blue & purple toning exactly like the real one to pass it off.

They just don’t have that skill and if they did the effort required wouldn’t be worth it.

 

I noticed that some auction houses are starting to take video clips of the actual coin and rotate them around to show toning and / or any fine scratches. This is definitely better than a standard 2d image.

Ultimately it might get to the stage where it's the battle of technology.

 

Actually Valcambi already has technology where they can tell you if a gold bar is a real Valcambi gold bar or not simply by taking a picture.

It scans the micro scratches & indentations and compares them to super high definition photos taken when in the factory.

If they match it will say “PASS”. If not “FAIL”.

 

That does have its flaws. The moment bars are handled, add in scratches and that's more than enough to throw the system.

 

I believe it will still look for the original scratches and if all original scratches are present it will PASS even if there are additional scratches.

 

They are the exact same coin. The colors are different because the angle of incidence in thin film interference physics can play a drastic part in the toning colors perceived by the viewer. That’s @GDJMSP ’s point.

PCGS TrueViews use the angle that causes the colors to pop, even if from most other angles it looks dull and colorless.

However, the tiny marks are exactly the same in both images. That can’t be faked or manipulated without physically editing the photos. That’s my point.

You have a ton to learn before you can talk about this subject with any authority