Why wasn't this artist arrested for making multiple counterfeit U.S. cents?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Dougmeister, Jan 10, 2018.

  1. Dave Waterstraat

    Dave Waterstraat Well-Known Member

    Here we go again....:vomit:
     
    mlov43, Cascade, 352sdeer and 2 others like this.
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  3. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title]

    Touché.

    I supposed a few of the fantasy pieces that replicate coins that did exist but were (supposedly) totally destroyed could be considered counterfeits. 1964-D Peace comes to mind. Thats fair.
     
    352sdeer likes this.
  4. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Not really. The problem with that argument is that is plays both side of the fence. The government doesn’t get to say these don’t exist we never made them but just encase we’re lying you can’t do that. They either exist or they don’t. If the government holds the position that they were never made or all destroyed that the end of it since we’ve learned in the double eagle case they can’t possibly be wrong
     
    Cascade likes this.
  5. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title]

    I don’t think the government has ever denied they made the 1964-D Peace Dollar. They just claim all we’re melted down and none survived. I think official records indicate 316000 were made.

    I could be wrong though.
     
    352sdeer likes this.
  6. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title]

    I think Doug’s statement (and I could be wrong) is that since they were made at one time then my statement earlier today isn’t totally accurate. That technically the 1964-D did exist and thus a recreation of it could be considered a counterfeit in the most literal sense
     
    352sdeer likes this.
  7. 352sdeer

    352sdeer Collecting Lincoln cents for 50 years!

    5A2722CF-FB83-41C1-A365-48658CEE6207.gif
     
  8. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    If they’re all melted and destroyed they don’t exist anymore though. They made it perfectly clear in the double eagle case they don’t make mistakes or release things ect so if they say they’re all destroyed that’s the end of it legally speaking.

    The better argument would be against the future dated one.
     
  9. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title]

    Maybe.

    My previous point was that you can’t make a counterfeit of something that never existed. Doug pointed out that specific argument doesn’t fit all of the Carr fantasy pieces. That was all I was responding too. His statement direct at mine was accurate.

    Based on what i have read online in various legal dictionaries...the crime of counterfeiting requires an intent to defraud. If that is true (and I’m not an attorney) then neither of these things would be considered counterfeiting. Clearly there has been no effort to prosecute.
     
    baseball21 likes this.
  10. Cascade

    Cascade CAC Grader, Founding Member

    You wouldn't be posting that meme if you've been through this a bazillion times before..
     
  11. Blissskr

    Blissskr Well-Known Member

    Actually yes you can the government has already been through this with the FTC case that is legal precedent
    page53.png
    And again no intent is necessary it's right there in the legal precedent case
    FTCnointent.png

    Also they specifically addressed this again in the update H.P.A. In fact they addressed your own comments where you argued for no stamp being required as per the footnote and yet they again reiterated that works of that type require a stamp per the FTC case precedent.
    HPAupdated.png


    Now queue being called a hater or whatever but how anyone who actually takes the time to read both the original FTC case legal precedent and the updated Hobby Protection Act and then somehow think that Carr's work is exempt is beyond my understanding.

    https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/f...july_-_december_1978pages_171-273.pdf#page=26

    https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/do...ces/2016/10/frn_hobby_final_rule_10-14-16.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
    micbraun likes this.
  12. 352sdeer

    352sdeer Collecting Lincoln cents for 50 years!

    Yeah I know but it’s fun to watch others besides ME spin and bounce like Tops! Besides if I use the meme I used yesterday on a different thread I’ll be burned at the stake by the angry mob for sure!
    L. O. L. So there is no mistake.:angelic:
    F71C5780-4E9A-4F9B-A759-0BDD529E09A4.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  13. 352sdeer

    352sdeer Collecting Lincoln cents for 50 years!

    BTW I do read this stuff so something HAS TO sink in! I do have a hard head though. Here’s a picture of me with out glasses.
    CA95A2EE-87FD-42EC-8701-3DE4204C86C7.jpeg And one with, B28C1F64-607C-482E-8C3B-7115F1E88987.png I think I look smarter already!
    Reed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  14. 352sdeer

    352sdeer Collecting Lincoln cents for 50 years!

    Oops double tap!
     
  15. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    It's clear that there are folks with opinions that are on both sides of this fence. Most are never going to change how they feel about the topic. I quit giving my opinion after being called a Carr hater, over and over again. For the record, there are only a few coins Mr. Carr has produced that I have a problem with.
     
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  16. 352sdeer

    352sdeer Collecting Lincoln cents for 50 years!

    Old Japanese Proverb
    出る杭は打たれる
    • deru kui wa utareru
    • Translation: The stake that sticks out gets hammered down.
    • Meaning: "Standing out goes hand in hand with criticism."
    • English equivalent: The nail that sticks out gets hammered down.
    My head is as flat as a table from all the hammering.
    6C317CF7-C306-4C40-BB7A-D4CE6E1516F3.gif Reed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  17. dcarr

    dcarr Mint-Master

    The contention that the "1964-D" over-strike Peace is somehow different because they were previously minted is invalid because the issuing authority (the US Treasury Department) has officially issued a statement that all were destroyed and none were issued or released.
     
  18. dcarr

    dcarr Mint-Master

    None of this takes into consideration the over-striking of genuine coins to clearly impart a date which was never issued.

    The outfit that produced the "fantasy-date" German Wilhelm gold coins struck them on virgin blanks (so they were not alterations to genuine coins), and they marketed the coins with claims that they were official German mint restrikes. This indicated a fraudulent intent.

    The definition of "Original Numismatic Item" in the Hobby Protection Act indicates that a protected item must have been previously issued as part of a coinage. 1964 Peace Dollars were never issued - the US Treasury Department says so.
     
  19. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins

    This stuff gets so old with me. Who the devil is gonna get hurt with these (DC) coins (tokens)? You guys want to save the world? Go ahead, but the only people that are gonna get hurt are the ones trying to pass them off as genuine........
     
  20. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title]

    I don't disagree with you. Again, my original statement said that it is impossible to counterfeit something that never existed. The 1964-D Peace did exist...so my argument was not valid on that particular coin. That is all that I was saying. Doug pointed that out to me...and I was simply acknowledging that I was in error.

    If I am wrong when I say something...and I learn otherwise, I prefer to own up to it. That's all.

    I honestly don't think this particular argument of yours holds water. Once you restrike a coin...you completely change that coin. It doesn't matter that it was once a real silver dollar.

    Again, I personally don't think what you do is illegal (I know others feel very differently). That said, if doing what you do with blank dies was illegal...I don't think that striking over existing coins would change that.
     
  21. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title]

    It's a "soap box" issue Ken...that's all. ;)
     
    green18 likes this.
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