Why is it graded so high.

Discussion in 'What's it Worth' started by Peter Economakis, Oct 27, 2020.

  1. Peter Economakis

    Peter Economakis Well-Known Member

    Capture.PNG Capture.PNG This is really a post to learn a little about grading.
    No doubting anything but I really can't see it being graded so high.
    Seems like the seller has better dates in better shape for way less.
    What am I missing?
    I believe I have bought from this seller before and was happy and no outrages pricing till I saw this one coin. Could be it's the wrong coin in the pic but it's also NGC rated and can't see a mistake like this..
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2020
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  3. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Greysheet for this coin is $55, and greysheet retail is $74, so IMO the seller has the coin listed for a full retail price. As for the assigned grade, the toning is neutral, and other than the reed mark on the bell, the coin looks very clean. It is tough to gauge the luster from those photos, but as long as the coin has good luster, I don't see a problem with the assigned grade of MS65.

    In summary, I don't see an issue with either the assigned grade or the seller's asking price.
    imrich, Evan Saltis, Razz and 2 others like this.
  4. Peter Economakis

    Peter Economakis Well-Known Member

    The reed marks are the 3 divots on the bell and on Franklins bust and face at certain spots?
    These reed marks also don't take away any value or much value?
  5. Randy Abercrombie

    Randy Abercrombie Supporter! Supporter

    Eye appeal doesn't always translate to a grade. My most beautiful coin is an AU58. My ugliest coin was an MS65 SLQ that I am happy to say is no longer mine. I was stunned when that homely quarter made it to $500.00 on Ebay. It was so unappealing, I wouldn't have expected a fifty dollar bid. You often have to separate yourself from eye appeal when you are leaning on a grade to sell a coin.
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  6. Evan Saltis

    Evan Saltis College Dorm Collector

    This is reasonable pricing, however on the high end of it imo. A rather ugly coin but still quality nonetheless. The reed marks on the Liberty Bell kind of stood out to me, but I'm assuming if it is graded MS-65 everything else would be rather minor.
  7. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    Looks MS-65 to me, like has been said, it has a toning problem that can't be said to have eye appeal, but as far as strike and condition it's pretty nice, not FBL or GEM BU though. No question it's not a MS67 that's for sure. I've a feeling since there's no glare, it's poorly lit and there's a lot of luster I bet around the dark splotchy toning too.

    "At MS-65, a Franklin half dollar will be, for the most part, free of major marks. Not totally free of marks, mind you, just free of major ones. The bell on the reverse will still take some hits and expect that Franklin’s bust, hair, and face will exhibit minor hits as well. Nothing major at this grade.

    In the certified world, MS-65 Franklins are considered mid-grade. Dealers usually won’t pay a premium for them unless they have spectacular toning, are from a conditionally scarce date, or have Full Bell Lines." -Coinweek article

    Realistically, this coin is a MS64 all day long without question, I'm not surprised it got MS65 from a grader in hand. But there's almost zero question that it's not deserving to go lower than 64 or up to 66. it's an average, middle of the road MS franklin half. nothing spectacular, nothing horrible either.

    Just curious, what do you think it should have been graded based off these pictures, which I must admit aren't the most flattering.
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  8. Inspector43

    Inspector43 72 Year Collector

    Is that toning or some other discoloration? The discoloration is in striations. The striations are lined up obverse and reverse more like woodgrain would be. Toning doesn't generally happen that way.
    Peter Economakis likes this.
  9. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    This is from the NGC cert look up, hopefully the pictures come up big enough. certainly there's more luster than his pictures on his sale suggest there is.
    it's toning though, the seller just took a really bad picture that highlights it in an odd way. still ugly toning though. lol
    Capture 9845.PNG Capture 9846.PNG
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2020
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  10. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    On its technical merits, it's gem. That's how it was graded.
  11. Peter Economakis

    Peter Economakis Well-Known Member

    Please with all due respect to members opinions I just don't see it being graded that high, but i'm pretty sure it's a picture issue that doesn't show its true niceness:)
    The bunch of nic's bother me a bit but seeing members opinions that the nics won't hurt it value I will take that into account.

    I posted this coin of mine a while ago and although its not toned its not marked or has no nic's.
    I have maby 20 to 25 of these in BU dated from 58 to 63 and 4 proofs in sets of a 57, 58 and 2 62's. One of the sets is showing some toning.
    I guess what i'm getting at is why wouldn't someone take one the proofs out for example which are worth less and have it graded? Not counting in and factoring the grading cost..

    IMG_20200716_112422.jpg IMG_20200716_112541.jpg
  12. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    Hi Peter, I'm unclear on what your question is or if there are multiple questions. so If I'm way off base here and not answering the question you are asking,.... sorry. :)

    "I guess what i'm getting at is why wouldn't someone take one the proofs out for example which are worth less and have it graded? Not counting in and factoring the grading cost.."

    Proof is Proof, MS is MS. it's not the same strike.
    take the 1963 you pictured, it needs to be MS66 or higher to be worth more than $30, or it needs to be at least MS64 with full bell lines to be worth more than $30.
    this is where the prices jump way up, because MS66 or better is hard to achieve.

    As Far as Proof goes of the same year, it's about $50 for PR67, $90 for a cameo PR67, And about $250 for a Deep Cameo PR67. for a non-cameo 1963 Proof, it's really got to be PR69 for that year to be worth the big bucks a non-cameo PR68 sells for around $75.00 if you can find a buyer for it.

    A proof will be graded as a Proof, A Business Strike is going to be graded as MS, it's the same scale, but proofs were better struck and proof dies were finished differently for the collector markets. A proof won't slip by and get tagged as a MS coin at least not with Franklin halves.

    Hopefully this is what you mean?
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  13. Peter Economakis

    Peter Economakis Well-Known Member

    Hi John, pretty much what i'm asking.:)
    I will get back when I have a bit more time to ask a little more and follow up. I don't wan't to leave you hanging, especially with you going to the effort with giving some great info..
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  14. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    I've got all day, I'm at work and work is SLOW for months now, I'm basically just hanging out and cleaning up and organizing and such with most of my time. :)

    No worries at all, I'm hanging anyways, wishing the cruise ships would get moving again so we can get back to work for real and I don't have to wait and stress so much. :) right now, time, I got!
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  15. Peter Economakis

    Peter Economakis Well-Known Member

    LOL! To understand my questions you will need time!

    I will try to ask one simple one for now..
    If I were to take the Franklin out of the plastic and hand the bare coin to a experienced collector, could he tell it was a proof struck over a regular strike thats in BU shape?
    Same as comparing the proof to a MS, with both being shown out of the plastic.
    Do the MS sets have a somewhat frosted bust or is only with certain coins and later years?

    I find it hard that a proof that might be a PR67 would be worth less than a BU67? I don't know if i'm making sense at this point!
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
  16. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    That"s an easy question if you think about how and why proof and business strike coins are made.
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  17. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    Depends on the collector I would guess. 100% I can tell a proof from a circulation strike for most coins,. I have issue with the early "matte finish" stuff that's seen wear/circulation. I can tell a ciruclated proof from a circulated MS coin also.

    I think most any collector that understand the difference between Proof and Business strikes can tell the difference without much effort for many series.

    I took pictures From PCGS, the First is a MS66, the second is a PR66 they both have similar toning (it's never absolutely the same).
    Neither are FBL designation for a sharper strike, The Proof is not cameo or deep cameo. looking the two over, there's a difference and I don't mean the toning. finer details are much sharper, surfaces are smoother, the rim is solid and thick on the proof. Honestly if a collector or dealer can't tell the difference between Mint State and Proof, they probably shouldn't be buying or selling coins at all. LOL

    Capture4354 MS.PNG 4567 PR.PNG
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  18. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    Proof coins are double struck and specially prepared dies and planchets are used. They are made for collectors and don't get banged around much and are expected to have FBL. Business strike are made for commerce and treated rough in comparison to proofs. So a business strike in MS67 is much rarer than a PF67 in most cases and therefore is valued more, in general.
    Peter Economakis likes this.
  19. Peter Economakis

    Peter Economakis Well-Known Member

    Ok I see a big difference with the reverse details on the first MS, but the obverse Franklin's bust on the proof looks fuller and the lettering is cleaner.

    Edit: The bell on the Proof I just realized is way smaller can it be that much smaller??
    Pictures though I realize aren't the best way to go by.
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
  20. Peter Economakis

    Peter Economakis Well-Known Member

    Ok, this I understand;) but I would think it would take a decent expert to know the difference if some scammer tried to pass a PR67 as a Business strike 67, although the difference in money isn't all that much??
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
  21. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    the price difference between a 1963 MS 67 and a Proof 67 is huge considering on PCGS a MS67 doesn't exist yet and the highest is MS66 a population of 6, MS66+.
    the MS66+ is valued at $1300. if it were full bell lines, it gets to the $20,000-$85,000 range for that year at MS66 or 66+ FBL. No MS67 for that year exists from them, so it's kind of up in the air what it would be worth.

    Top population for 1963 proof is PR69 Deep Cameo and valued around $8000.
    A PR66 or PR67 DCAM goes for around $100-$250.

    There's a huge difference.

    It doesn't take an expert to tell the difference, it just takes anyone wanting to recognize that there is a difference and how to tell the difference.

    But as I said, if someone can't tell the difference, then they shouldn't be buying or selling coins in the first place.

    And on the proof half dollar pictured, the proof isn't smaller, it all measures the same, look at the amount of detail in Franklins Hair, the depth of the crack in the bell, the appearing depth of Franklins face when compared to the Business Strike. Apples to Apples, for the grade, the proof is a much higher quality coin that won't slip past anyone that isn't a novice to Franklin halves or coins in general.
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
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