Why ICGS or NGC etc. when CAC can overrule there grading.

I think they'd like to think they are a "market maker," as you say. It actually seems more like propaganda you see in their magazine ads. I think the TPGs do all the legwork, then cac comes around to suck what's left of the collector market dry

 

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I think they actually are a market maker for CAC stickered coins. They have a network and price list for sight unseen trading.

 

I have seen you post this on multiple forums and in multiple threads, but I have heard quite the contrary. I mostly collect world coins, but I am good friends with a high-end US coin collector. He has asked for offers on dozens of stickered coins -- PQ lovely toned and original coins -- and has received time and time again low-ball generic and near-insulting offers from CAC. He has subsequently sold many coins on online coin forum BST boards and to dealers of high end material at shows for sometimes multiples of the CAC sight-unseen offers.

Sure, CAC might offer to buy your beaned coins at higher than you paid if you're talking generic middle-range so-so eye appealing coins, but for coins that are truly special, they will offer you generic "sight unseen CAC price-guide" amounts that are pretty low-ball.

The point being, because CAC has offered you more than you paid for a coin, doesn't mean that's more than you could have received for a truly special coin from a dealer or by selling it yourself. Sure, if you want to offload so-so coins quickly, there's a liquidity component to selling to CAC, but no one is making money that way hand over fist. I wonder what their "sight unseen" buy offer for the recent 1882-S PCGS MS65 CAC Morgan would be (the one that sold for $14k!).

 

isn't that what the bluesheet was? And isn't there a online exchange somewhere that does that? and does anybody care???

 

How did you know it was me? Does my writing style make it that easy to identify my moniker from other forums?

As with anything, YMMV. For gold and for many 19th century and 20th century type coins that are solid for the grade with normal eye appeal, CAC is a good option. If on the other hand, the coin are true monsters or are in the top 5-10% of the issue for eye appeal, then yes, other venues may prove more favorable. I never implied anything to the contrary and stated that I had coins that I felt had unusually strong eye appeal that I would not offer to CAC for this reason. The one price per sticker grade approach isn't best in every scenario, but in many it works well. To provide a bit more information on how CAC is a useful tool, when I cannot see a coin and am relying on internet images, the CAC sticker tells me that I can at least bid up to CAC's bid level. If I hate the coin, I can send it in with my next submission and get my money back. I have done this before. Some series are also more liquid than others. For series that are less liquid, you pretty much always have a buyer if it is CAC stickered. That is what I meant.

 

How exactly is that CAC comes around to "suck what's left of the collector market dry"? You don't mean to suggest that CAC makes money on stickering coins do you? CAC does not really make profit and might even lose given that their time can be used in more lucrative ways. CAC makes the vast majority of its money buying and selling CAC stickered coins, in which case, how does this really differ from any other coin dealer? The only real difference I can see is that CAC affixes insignia to publicly display that it would buy that piece if offered to it.

 

CAC stickers, IMO is just another way to manipulate a market that often is stagnant. CAC is just another solution to that problem and I'm sure the large dealers welcomed them with open arms. Go ahead and put that sticker on an already graded coin and drive up the price. No thanks, I'll pass.

 

Do they publish these numbers anywhere?

 

For many issues, the prices are available in the Blue Sheet. There is also an online exchange, CoinPlex that posts them. It is also my understanding that the Numismedia price guide (from that site and not through NGC) was recently expanded to include them, but I have not actually used that one. Also, you can always call or email CAC. For more esoteric issues, an email usually is best. CAC usually responds within 48 hours (at least for me).

 

Two bit: to disparage CAC because of the behavior of certain dealers is unfair to CAC. I'm a dealer, and I do lots of Dealer-dealer transactions. i have NEVER encountered a dealer asking a ridiculous premium for a green beaned slab. The bean might cause me to ask sheet or slightly higher than sheet, where I would otherwise come off of sheet a bit.

I see this logic often in my law practice, where people (and some attorneys) ascribe the bad characteristics of a client to the client's counsel.

 

Green18: JA's numismatic operation ( not CAC ) had tables at the Houston Money Show in 2011-12. He was not present, bit was represented by an attractive lady. For sale in his display boxes were approximately 150 of the MOST BEAUTIFUL RAINBOW/ DPL COINS I've EVER SEEN. 66-68 grades. Mostly Morgans. He's obviously had the opportunity to see "it all," and cherry-picked like only a wealthy man could do.

I wonder, out loud, if he approaches CAC submitters when he sees spectacular specimins. If you have looked at enough DPLs, you know that the ultra-reflective mirror surface magnifies the flaws in the coins. Which explains why most DPLs get low-mid MS grades. Every now and then, a fabulous 65-66 DPL presents itself. I'm guessing he waits for the truly spectacular coins to enter his bean field...and he ....

 

I met him back in (I think) '09 at Coinfest when he was first kicking off his endeavor.

 

You mean like the case where a lawyer is about to be sanctioned and is claimin it's not my fault because my client made me file the nonsense brief? [D-2827 IN THE MATTER OF DISCIPLINE OF HOWARD NEIL SHIPLEY]

 

God in heaven, lets keep the lawyers out of this..........

 

Good luck with that. This is America, where 9/10 of all lawyers in the world live. They bleed into our society everywhere.

 

Why is everyone against lawyers? Believe it or not, there are very ethical lawyers out there. Sadly, there can be 20 great lawyers for every 1 or 2 that are rotten, and everyone remembers the latter.

 

A good number of clients lie to their attorneys, and I think that is part of his point. One of the greatest fears a lawyer can have is having clients lie to you and sand bag you in court.

Edited: I am not necessarily referring to the cited case.

 

I'm not against them per se, but it's like rotten blueberries in the cereal bowl... It donsn't take many to spoil breakfast.

 

Is anybody gonna touch this?

 

Sorry got too excited in the x-game sport of lawyer bashing.

I lose respect for CAC's stated mission of confirmation when they confirm obvious mechanical errors like a no arrows Standing Liberty quarter that had arrows. It's hard to understand how you could confirm that if you actually looked at the coin.

I would have a lot more respect for CAC (or anybody else) if in fact they reverted to strict ANA grading and put a sticker on it saying ANA35. Because then you would be able to compare grades across time, grading services and standards.