Why Don't PCGS & NGC Share Population Data ?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by GoldFinger1969, Jan 20, 2021.

  1. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    This confusion regarding population counts...since they are important to the coin business, the hobby, collectors, and the TPGs....I wonder why PCGS and NGC don't share information on the "crossovers" and "crackouts" that distort (double-count) the population numbers ?

    I know they are competitors but key information like that would clear up the overcount population data which we can only guestimate at.
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  3. tibor

    tibor Well-Known Member

    you rarely if ever share any info with the competition,
    no matter how much it benefit the the greater good.
    NSP, YoloBagels, -jeffB and 1 other person like this.
  4. Santinidollar

    Santinidollar Supporter! Supporter

    You answered your own question — because they are competitors.
    NSP, YoloBagels, MIGuy and 1 other person like this.
  5. CoinCorgi

    CoinCorgi Derp, derp, derp!

    Mortal enemies!
  6. Jaelus

    Jaelus The Hungarian Antiquarian Supporter

    It wouldn't benefit collectors. The two companies don't grade the same, so the data is not comparable. Each company undergrades or overgrades some issues consistently, when compared to the other company.

    Also the census data of each company isn't "clean" to begin with, due to changing standards, crackouts, and crossovers.
    NSP, MIGuy and tibor like this.
  7. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    But it benefits the entire industry !

    There's no reason not to have population data that is 90-95% accurate instead of maybe 70% accurate or whatever it is.
  8. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    What good would it do though sir? Even if they reported it, it would not be right. What about those who crack out the coin at home and send it in raw again? You will NEVER know how many regrades are in the pop numbers sir. I understand the sentiment, but even if they held hands and sang Kumbaya, it would not solve the problem. Many regrades the consignor does not WANT the TPG to know what it was graded at the first time, which is why they are regrading it.
    -jeffB likes this.
  9. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    i do not think any valuable information can be gleaned from same. i also don't think it is key information. any such info can change overnight. the re-submit game is never ending, and sharing such information is obsolete almost as soon as it is compiled. i am not sure the tpgs even keep track of such information, because what purpose, from a business standpoint, would it serve?

    yes, there was a time a bounty was paid for returning the stickers. it did not benefit collectors in any meaningful way, that i experienced.

    the population reports of each entity are disseminated by the collectors/dealers themselves, and is not a closely held double probation secret ovaltine ring message.
  10. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I agree with that, but there's more to it than that !

    If the TPGs shared and made public accurate data on crossovers and re-grades and all of that, think about what that information would tell the public. They'd be able to track and see changes in grading standards.

    PCGS quit producing these for the very same reason -


    With printed reports, physically seeing where and when changes in grading standards take place becomes patently obvious. And doing that seriously hurts their business model because it gives you documentation direct from the sources that simply cannot be denied.

    The public only being able to guestimate is precisely what they want. It is what literally keeps them in business.
  11. MIGuy

    MIGuy Supporter! Supporter

    Money, it's a gas.
    ZoidMeister likes this.
  12. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    If you spend the time researching old books, auction catalogs, and other data sources (easier nowadays with the Internet) this information comes out anyway.

    It's not as bold and as in-your-face, but they aren't fooling anybody.

    Direct hit !! :D

    They'd stay in business, they just wouldn't be increasing grades as often and they would lose a tiny sliver of business in the shor-term (crossovers, crackouts)....but they'd GAIN in the long-term because honesty and integrity and stability in grading would increase.

    NFL decades ago took a short-term hit (gate receipts) to allow for increased TV viewing. Now, TV is the majority of their revenue.
    MIGuy likes this.
  13. Darkside

    Darkside Member

    It's really up to the individual collector in the current model. Both NGC and PCGS will delete a label if you mail it to them along with a note asking for such.

    I always try to do this with crack outs or cross overs, especially if it is a scarce coin.
    MIGuy and GoldFinger1969 like this.
  14. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    But if grades aren't stable, particularly if they continually inflate, it ensures a steady flow of upgrade attempts. I don't see them walking away from that revenue stream.
    MIGuy and GoldFinger1969 like this.
  15. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    Short-sighted, IMO.

    No business or business model is best when information is hazy deliberately.

    Transparency is always best.
  16. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    coins changed collectors hands for hundreds and hundreds of years without accurate population data.

    I think we can survive without it.
    Magnus87 and Dialupsux like this.
  17. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    PCGS does share crossover data with the public for how many were attempted and how many succeeded. What they don't share is which coins they were unless its a big coin

    Neither company would care what the other one had to say anyways
  18. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    Survive, sure.

    Thrive, maybe not. :p

    I just think it'd be win-win-win for the TPGs, existing collectors, and NEW collectors who have better information.

    I never heard of publishing data (like the population census) when you KNOW it is not accurate and don't even advertise that fact in a footnote or asterisk.
  19. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    Just off the tops of your veteran coin collecting heads...what % of each TPGs population would you say might have gravitated to the other side and no longer exists in said TPGs slab for popular coin series ?

    20% for NGC and maybe 5% for PCGS ?
  20. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    GDJSMP, so PCGS used to produce that population report every year and then suddenly -- no more ?

    Wow...when was the last one ?
  21. furham

    furham Good Ole Boy

    As David Bowers once said one of these days we will see population reports with numbers higher than the actual mintage.
    NSP and GoldFinger1969 like this.
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