Why are toned coins so popular?

I look at hundreds of his offerings per WEEK, and in the past 12 months, I've bought two coins. I've bid on 5 in that time. Take from that what you will.

To me, it's just because my efforts are at that sort of point.

 

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I know for certain I am having a harder time finding passable photos than you report. There's a lot of schlock photos out there.

 

SuperDave posted:

"Quality optical magnification is expensive and inefficient. I cannot imagine ever needing more than 10x optical, and have never actually used more than 5x in practice. If I ever need more detail, I will increase the sensor size and megapixel count to that end. 50x optical magnification on a modern 20+MP sensor would create an image of such size that a single serif on a letter could not be viewed in its' entirety on a large monitor.....

There is, even for me, an upper limit to how much magnification is necessary. A point is reached - more quickly than most realize - where the detail depicted cannot ever be proven to have happened by one process or another."

Actually, quality optics is expensive but it IS NOT INEFFICIENT. What
is inefficient at this time is trying to magnify coins with the pixels (is that what they are called?) from a camera.

I can recall decades ago seeing a large image of a 1913 Liberty nickel in Coin World. The state-of-the-art digital camera made the coin look like a lumpy crude cast counterfeit. LOL! Sure, sure, its much better now but IMO, we ain't there yet outside of some possible extremely expensive NASA digital camera.

 

There's a rule I follow - I will buy online, but not until I get to meet a seller in "meat space" first. I did my first transaction with GSC in "meat space" and ditto I got to know Matt Dinger in "meat space" before we transacted online.

 

I think you're describing the difference between optical magnification and digital magnification, WHICH SHOULD BE AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS IN COIN PHOTOGRAPHY! All digital mag does is blow up the digital artifacts, jpeg or otherwise.

 

V. Kurt Bellman, posted: "15X? Fifteen-ex??? FIFTEEN-EX!?!?! Where you been? These jabronis are throwing 50X and 75X and more at this stuff!"

Nevertheless, if it is a genuine doubled die at 100X, it is a genuine doubled die and they are having fun.

 

ALMOST confirmed. There are things I may have once been able to see, but now can't. If my kid can see it, it's okay.

 

Actually, NASA doesn't make them, vendors do, and while expensive, they're available. The difference between what NASA uses and high end prosumer stuff continues to shrink.

 

You say that only one kind of person needs to fear your wrath, then you give a person who fits that description a pass because you don't have the time to be bothered with coins that he offers that might be problem coins. It is a fact that GSC uses photographic post processing to hide flaws in order to make problem coins appear problem free. In my opinion, that meets the definition of ripping people off. He isn't doing anything illegal, and he has the right to run his business anyway he likes, but I also have the right to warn others of his practices, especially when I think they don't know better. The one redeeming quality of GSC is that they have a no questions asked return policy if you are unhappy with the coin.

I find it humorous that someone who decided 25 years ago not to be involved with toned coins thinks he knows enough to lecture those who have been immersed in the toned coin market for decades about how it works. You seem to think, like most people who aren't in the toned coin market, that creating AT coins that can fool the TPGs is an easy feat and that the majority of rainbow toned coins fall into that category. The truth is that it is a very difficult proposition and very few coin doctors possess the ability to fool the TPGs on a consistent basis.

Every so often, a guy shows up claiming that it is easy, and then I challenge him to prove his chops. Invariably, they always give me excuses about how they are the good guy and only AT coins for educational purposes and they fold. Kinda like you did when I challenged you to prove your ability to cherrypick GSC's inventory for financial gain.

The truth is that rainbow toned coins existed long before coin doctors attempted to recreate them. It is also true that the large majority of rainbow toned coins in TPG plastic are NT coins. You tell me and my pals in the toner market that we need to be informed yet you sound like a rank amateur when you attempt to discuss toned coins. So Jeff didn't like my use of type 1 & type 2 AT to separate the neophytes from the experts. Well how about toning progressions, color schemes, elevation chromatics, toning correspondence, and pullaway toning? How about the differences between bag toning, target toning, tab toning, and monochromatic toning? As well as which storage methods cause which pattern and which type of coins are typically found with which pattern?

I have news for you, every area of numismatics has its pitfalls and artificial toning is the pitfall for the toned coin market, but that doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

No, YOU don't. I do. I believe that I PERSONALLY heard Q. David Bowers and Cliff Mishler BOTH denigrate the toner specialty as a joke in these modern days. QDB has ABSOLUTELY said there are thousands, yes THOUSANDS, of AT coins in PCGS and NGC plastic, GRADED plastic, not Details tombs.

That old lie you keep trotting out about dealers never putting them out for sale until they got hot is so ridiculous, it's a meme. Toners are being manufactured right now, day and night, as fast as they can crank them out.

And no, I'm not referring to the original canvassed Morgans. They are their own category. They started the fire of interest.

 

So does everyone who ever took a digital photo, whether they know it or not, whether they did it with intent or not. We're talking about degrees here, not a binary yes/no.

 

GDJMSP posted: "I think his whole point is if you can't see it with your eyes - who cares. Oddly enough, that's my thinking as well - on that point anyway."

I happen to almost agree with both of you. If you cannot see it at 5-10X I don't care either (with very few exceptions). My point is, the folks who use high power magnification to look for "micro" errors don't deserve to be criticized.

Believe it or not, I like to think I have an open mind and should never accuse those folks of wasting time or being brain washed. Ditto for those who appreciate beautiful toning.

 

And I would agree with you IF (which ISN'T the case) they used optical magnification and not digital, which is basically useless unless the point is finding "false positives", which, from looking at the error section, at least SEEMS to be the object of the exercise.

 

If that's what they enjoy doing who cares, it's their hobby to enjoy. I personally wouldn't care for things I have to magnify like that but if others do more power to them.

 

So I guess you're in a sideline business selling to THEM, too.

 

The reason you can't see what you need to see is because they have post processed the photos and jacked up both the brightness & contrast in order to hide the surfaces of the coin. It hides small marks, luster grazes, and is extremely effective in eliminating hairlines found on proof coins or cleaned coins. It would take seconds to snap a second photo that gives a more macro representation of the coin, but they never provide one.

You said earlier that coin photographers will take photos to show their coin in the best light. While that might be acceptable for sharing a coin on an online forum or in a registry, a seller's photo should be one that shows the potential buyer the best representation of what the coin looks like in hand, not what looks the best. It certainly shouldn't be done in such a fashion as to hide the coins flaws.

As for the raw vs graded debate, I can tell you unequivocally that raw coins drive lower prices than graded examples by NGC or PCGS. So the only reason to offer a significant numismatic coin ($500+) would be if the coin is a problem coin and won't straight grade at the TPGs. There is no way that I would sell a problem free Proof Morgan Dollar raw, EVER!

 

Now you're being critical of me for not criticizing people for collecting what they love?