Why ancient collectors hate slabs

I'll agree with all of the Ides of March post.

I can't agree with Mat regarding the two coins. Most collectors who know no better will see that the first coin has EF detail on the portrait but is only Fine on the body of the reverse. Mat's comparison coin merges the head, ear and crown so I'f call it aVF but the reverse is decently struck and probably full VF. I'd prefer Mat's aVF/VF coin and would in fact buy it if I wanted the type. The OP EF/F coin may be a bit nice to get Mat's alternative grade but I definitely would not buy it and do suggest it be left in the coffin since the metal soundness looks suspect to me. It is scandalous that the coin I see was graded AU (obverse only???) but the strike/surface numbers strike me as several digits high. If the grading company actually used US standards it would be a body bag (as would 95% of all ancients). I do not work for a slab company but I'd call the OP an EF/F 2/2 and Mat's an aVF/VF 4/3.

I do agree with the theory that slabbed ancients are just for people who don't want ancients, don't care to learn and want to impress people who know less than they do. I just hope they don't accidentally slab a coin worth owning and expect me to pay them for their $40 holder. I have zero respect for ANA regarding ancients (I dropped my membership over 40 years ago). Before I saw this one, I usually was close to accepting NGC as reasonable but we always fall back on the old saw "buy the coin not the slab". Finally, I just about hurt myself when I read that the reason we need to see a coin edge is to check for reeding.

BTW, medoraman, I promise that I will touch each and every ancient coin you send me and I know an 5th grade class full of kids studying antiquity that would be happy to get their hands on a bucketful if you have them to spare. If its not too much to ask, could we have ones that show characters from the Percy Jackson books (centaur, Pegasus, Poseidon etc.)? Don't send obols, though, since they know they go in the mouth and its flu season. :devil:

 

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I collect on eye appeal, a nice fully struck design with a minimum of problems. Wear is a real issue when it comes to some ancient and medieval coins - how do you really gauge how much wear some early coins have, when they were cast as some Syracuse and other Greeks were, others were handstruck from dies that were unique and not created by the dozens from a hub etc?

Graded coins appeal to a certain genre of collectors. Maybe I am old school, but I prefer my coins untombed.

Thankfully none of my ancients are tombed. I do have one or two Scots silver coins, a penny and a groat that are tombed and I haven't bothered to crack them out.

 

I have less than 15 ancients & medieval coins and am just starting to learn, but I do not want any of them slabbed. Nor would I buy any. As been mentioned, with these coins the tactile feeling of holding something that old, and wondering where it's been and who before me held that coin is much of the pleasure I get from these coins. I am trying to assemble coins that relate to historical periods and people I have done reading/research on or places I've been to. Entombing a coin destroys the connection I would have from the coin

Hope that makes sense

 

The one benefit NGC slabbed ancients would have, especially for new collectors, is their guaranteed authenticity.

But wait a minute!

NGC does not guarantee authenticity of their slabbed ancients.

From: http://www.ngccoin.com/ancients -

"Authenticity and attribution represent the opinion of NGC Ancients and are not guaranteed, nor is any guarantee implied."

You can read the NGC Ancients Coin Grading Guarantee from a link on that page.



Whereas NGC slabbed US and World coins are guaranteed authentic.

From: http://www.ngccoin.com/services/writtenguarantee.aspx -

"All US and World coins and all tokens and medals certified and encapsulated by NGC are guaranteed authentic."


What a racket. Yes you pay for slabbing, grading and authentication of ancients, but if the coin later turns out to be a fake - you're out of luck.

So what exactly did you pay for? So called "grading", and a piece of plastic.

 

I did not know Phillip the Arabs kid was such a porker. :burger-flip:

 

Problem with that theory is someone has to pay the grading fee at some point to get them slabbed in the first place. Money spent on slabbing the coins is money not being spent on other coins. There's still an opportunity cost, and the money spent on slabbing is lost to the hobby as a whole even if an individual buyer/seller isn't the one that has to pay it.

It's like the "parable of the broken window" where someone tries to argue that breaking a window somehow stimulates economic activity because of the necessity to repair the window, when in reality the economy as a whole is poorer by at least the cost of the window.

 

Wow, so you don't even get that? I was about to say that a guarantee of authenticity would be the only reason paying to have an ancient coin slabbed would be worth it... but apparently, you don't even get that much. All you get is a hunk of plastic and a grading opinion. Being in an NGC slab doesn't even guarantee the coin is real. Let me repeat that in case any of you missed it: An ancient coin in an NGC slab is NOT guaranteed to be authentic!!!

Seriously, I can't believe anyone falls for this.

 

Man, I hate on slabs and didn't even know that.

Btw, I just wanted to publicly say I was not trying to slam the seller of the coin. He is a good seller, this was just the first coin I saw for sale in his store, and it really just struck me the wrong way.

 

Well not saying there's anything wrong with buying or selling a slabbed coin. I think it's the TPG ripping people off, not the people selling slabbed coins. Just be aware that the slab offers no guarantee of authenticity, so coveat emptor and all that. I know inexperienced collectors prefer the assurance TPGs offer that at least the coin is guaranteed to be authentic; so collectors should keep in mind this does NOT apply to ancient coins, therefore a slab is not a substitute for educating yourself enough about the coins to be able to determine what is real and what is not. Don't shell out a serious amount of money until you have the confidence that you can determine its authenticity, because the TPGs are not offering any kind of guarantee.

 

Lets just say that they were to guarantee authenticity and they did get caught in a mistake. How would we determine the amount of compensation owed? Modern coins exist by the thousands in grades and have established prices so you could replace an MS65 with another MS65 or pay the going rate. There is no such catalog of values or expectations of what a certain ancient in a certain grade should bring. There are too many factors. We could never even agree on whether a certain coin is genuine or fake in some cases until the arguments settle down. Research the experts in conflict on the Black Sea Hoard coins. Had 1000 of those been slabbed, all would be now due about $250 unless someone happened to get one of the real ones mixed in with the hoard. The slabbers could afford that. More recently we see fights on big Greek silvers and Roman gold that really could be either way. We do not have a database on the million variations of ancient coins that would allow a slabbing employee training course that was 100% foolproof. I believe they are doing the right thing offering a $40 opinion rather than having to ask $4000 for a policy on some coins.

 

I agree. It just highlights the only real protection you get is from a knowledgable dealer. I would say is much more important than slabbing, since it comes with a lifetime return privilege if proven to be fake.

 

I agree to a point, but even more protection is afforded by your own knowledge.

 

Yes, of course. I was more speaking to those who do not have, and may not wish to obtain, such knowledge. Those would the TPG target audience.

Mr Vagi is a very nice man, very knowledgable and i like his books, i simply do not like this business proposition.

 

The issue of authenticity can be addressed by purchasing from reputable dealers and auction houses that provide guarantees. On the VCoins site, many dealers (if not all) offer guarantees similar to the following (offered by Pars Coins):

"All items are guaranteed genuine and authentic as described. We proudly offer an unconditional, lifetime guarantee of authenticity."


If you purchase a coin from one of these dealers that later is proven to be counterfeit, the dealer will refund your purchase price based on this guarantee (although this refund is not explicitly stated in the guarantee, so there may be some legal subtleties on this point).

Similarly, the auction house Numismatica Ars Classica (NAC) offers the following, even stronger guarantee:

"The Auction House offers an unconditional and unlimited guarantee for the authenticity of coins."

Note that this guarantee isn't just a "lifetime" guarantee (which probably means the lifetime of the purchaser) but is unlimited - i.e., forever - even when the coin is later sold, and resold, and resold... So if you purchase a coin from an NAC auction that is proven to be counterfeit decades later, and the latest purchaser eventually comes back to you for financial remuneration, you can go back to NAC and get your money back.

I've never seen EBay auctions offer guarantees remotely similar to these, other than those vendors who are also dealers and have a shop on VCoins. For that reason alone I would recommend that novice and inexperienced collectors of ancient coins NEVER purchase from EBay, at least not without considerable research on the SPECIFIC coin in which they're interested. Plus, you'll usually get much better deals from the VCoins dealers than from EBay vendors.

 

This isn't an ancient coin but...


Portugal gold 6400 Reis "Half Joe" 1738-R (Rio de Janiero)

It probably is not in good enough shape for a grading company,
but it is fun to handle and wonder if it was handled by
American colonists or, yes, Pirates!

 

Wanted to review what I read here and also my experience at the coin show.

I now see why collectors of ancient coins don't like slabs. There were tons of slabbed ancient coins at the show, none of them looked necessary to slab. I also see why holding some of these coins in hand beats having them resting in tombs.

Where the modern coins are really nice to have slabbed since they more condition sensitive. I got to hold some in hand and feel the surface. I also saw dealers dumping ancient coins on top of another, piled up or bagged up. None of them had scratch marks and when I saw one up close it still had a rich patina.

Can you tell I'm getting a bit more interested in ancients... well maybe.

 

Ancients are much more fun then moderns any day

 

Moderns were more fun when there was a hobby where we pulled them out of circulation and only recognized one level of Uncirculated (a grade I did not have many of). I recall the thrill of getting a couple Seated Liberty dimes out of circulation. Now we tell people it is a waste of time to collect anything less than MS67? Ancients are not fun either if all you are concerned about is the cash increase since the last time you looked.

 

Well said. In other words, US collecting was more fun when it was a hobby, not all serious and now vorboten to actually touch a coin.

It reminds me how i loved baseball card collecting then the dads got involved, things got all serious, you could never touch a card for fear of ruining its investment value, and sucked all the fun out of it.

I collect what i love, do not care too much about condition as you can see from some of my coins, and have FUN. If i had to only buy coins in plastic and never touch them, i would just quit and find a more interesting hobby. To me personally, TPG is dad ruining all of the fun.

 

Comic books are the same way. NGC slabs comic books & the price difference between a slabbed comic and a raw comic is pretty substantial. It also has affected selling/trading. Many dealers dont even look at the comic unless it's slabbed, or you get lowballed.

When it comes to buying older comics, my dad and I both buy "readers copies". Pretty much the "good" in coin grading. In 2011 he got a readers copy of fantastic four #1 for only a few hundred bucks. Anything higher it starts at $1,000 easily but it was a right place/right time and it completed his set.

Now hes working on first issues of Hulk.

Its sad when you get picked on buying low grade stuff whether its comics, trading cards & of course coins.