Log in or Sign up
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
Whose portrait appears on this Thespian bronze?
>
Reply to Thread
Message:
<p>[QUOTE="Roman Collector, post: 5316618, member: 75937"]I want to thank [USER=57495]@zumbly[/USER] for providing me numismatic references to research this coin and its background. The ancient forum at CT is truly the friendliest, most helpful coin community on the net! I am hoping some experts on mythology ([USER=103829]@Jochen1[/USER]) or Greek coinage ([USER=82322]@Ed Snible[/USER]) can provide me with more information.</p><p><br /></p><p>My son gave me this enigmatic little bronze of Thespiae in Boeotia for Christmas. I love it as much as I am curious about it!</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1224525[/ATTACH]</p><p>Greek Æ 12.5 mm, 3.37 g, 3 h.</p><p>Boeotia, Thespiae, late 3rd century BC?</p><p>Obv: Female head, right, wearing kalathos/modius/polos and veil.</p><p>Rev: ΘEΣΠI/EΩN either side of chelys (lyre); all within laurel wreath.</p><p>Refs: BMC 8.92,14-22; Sear 2461; SNG Cop 406-7; BCD <i>Boiotia</i> 612; Head <i>Boeotia</i> p. 94, pl. VI, 13.</p><p><br /></p><p>Several things about this coin remain unexplained. About the only things known with certainty are the city which issued it, that a veiled female head appears on its obverse, and that a lyre appears on its reverse.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>AN UNCERTAIN DATE</b></p><p><br /></p><p>There is no consensus on the date it was issued. I have seen estimates ranging from "early-middle 4th century BC"[1] to "BC 146-27."[2] Schachter, based upon a date assigned by Dr. ESG Robinson and his conclusion that Arsinoë III is depicted on its obverse, assigns at date of "about 210-208 BC."[3]</p><p><br /></p><p><b>A FEMALE</b></p><p><br /></p><p>Similarly, there is no consensus on the identity of the female figure on the obverse. Many catalogues (e.g. SNG Cop, BMC, HGC) simply describe the obverse figure as female, without attempting further identification, and that is the most intellectually honest approach, given our incomplete knowledge of the issue. Be that as it may, it's dissatisfying in its vagueness, and a few numismatists have attempted to identify the figure with a deity or historical figure.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>ARSENOE III</b></p><p><br /></p><p>Schachter, as noted above, identifies the figure as Arsinoë III for several reasons.[4] The Thespians of Boeotia were the organizers of the <i>Museia, </i>a music festival held at the sanctuary of the Muses on Mount Helikon. Toward the end of the third century BC, the <i>Museia</i> underwent a reorganization to raise its status: certain competitions were henceforth to be <a href="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dstefani%2Fths" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dstefani%2Fths" rel="nofollow"><i>στεφανιταί</i></a>, a competition which awarded a <i>stephanos</i> (laurel wreath) to the winner. He notes the coin's devices support an association with the <i>Museia</i>: the lyre symbolizes a musical festival and the laurel wreath the stephanos awarded to the victor. Noting that inscriptions date the reorganization of the festival to 215-208 BC, and that three inscriptions note that Ptolemy and his queen financed the festivals, he concludes that Ptolemy IV of Egypt and his wife Arsinoë III are the persons referred to in the inscriptions. Noting a similarity between the portrait on these tiny bronze coins of Thespiae and that of Arsinoë III on a <a href="https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3359951" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3359951" rel="nofollow">gold octodrachm</a> (BMFA 2286; Svoronos 1165), he concludes this Egyptian queen is the figure on the coin.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>HERA</b></p><p><br /></p><p>Elsewhere, the author of the relevant volume of HCG writes, "In earlier catalogues, the veiled bust is often identified as the Ptolemaic queen, Arsinoë III, in the guise of a Muse, but a more recent study suggests that the pan-Boiotian goddess, Hera Teleia (as herself), is intended. She also appears on a contemporary bronze issue of Orchomenos, perhaps indicating that the coins were struck in the context of the festival of the Greater Daidala, which involved many, if not all, of the Boiotian cities."[5] The issue of Orchomenos in question appears to be BMC 39, which Head and Poole attribute to Hera.[6] Interestingly, Schachter does not identify the female figure on the coins of Orchemenos to Hera, but to one of the <i>Charites</i>. He believes such coins depict Arsinoë III also but in the guise of a <i>Charis</i>.[7] Other online sources attribute the figure on these coins of Orchemenos to "Arsinoe III (as Hera)."[8] I do not know on what basis these coins attribute the figure to Hera or Arsinoë III.</p><p><br /></p><p>Apart from being a Boeotian goddess, I have little reason to believe the coin depicts Hera Teleia in particular. Teleia was the epithet of Hera used in her avatar as "Hera the Matron," a wedding goddess.[9] The presence of a lyre and laurel wreath have little to do with Hera and I think any attempt to identify the obverse figure with a deity should also attempt to explain the presence of the devices on the reverse.</p><p><br /></p><p>Moreover, while I admit that Schachter's identification of the figure as Arsinoë is possible, I'm not sure it's even plausible and it strikes me as fanciful if not special pleading. This explanation depends entirely on a certain date of 215-208 BC for the coin's production and I'm not sure the available data establishes a date of minting with such accuracy.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>A NEW INTERPRETATION</b></p><p><br /></p><p>I propose a simple explanation: the figure on the obverse is Thespia, the Naiad-nymph of the spring, well or fountain of the town of Thespiae. Pausanias (ix. 26. § 4) and Corinna (Fragment 674) each note the town is named after her. According to ancient mythographers,[10] Thespia was a daughter of the river-god Asopos and was abducted to the town by the god Apollo.</p><p><br /></p><p>The identification of the obverse with Thespia makes perfect sense. The town's namesake is on the obverse, while the lyre and laurel wreath, being attributes of Apollo, honor the god who brought her to the city.</p><p><br /></p><p>~~~</p><p><br /></p><p>Notes:</p><p><br /></p><p>1. "Thespiae, Boiotia, Early - Mid 4th Century B.C. <i>Forum Ancient Coins</i>, <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?zpg=15265" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?zpg=15265" rel="nofollow">www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?zpg=15265</a>.</p><p><br /></p><p>2. Head, Barclay V., and Reginald Stuart Poole. <i>A Catalogue of the Greek Coins in the British Museum: Central Greece (Locris, Phocis, Boeotia and Euboea)</i>. Longmans, by Order of the Trustees, 1884, p. 92. Available <a href="https://www.forumancientcoins.com/dannyjones/British%20Museum%20Books/Catalog%20of%20Greek%20Coins%20in%20the%20British%20Museum%20-%20Central%20Greece.pdf" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.forumancientcoins.com/dannyjones/British%20Museum%20Books/Catalog%20of%20Greek%20Coins%20in%20the%20British%20Museum%20-%20Central%20Greece.pdf" rel="nofollow">here</a> online.</p><p><br /></p><p>3. Schachter, Albert. "A Note on the Reorganization of the Thespian Museia."<i> The Numismatic Chronicle and Journal of the Royal Numismatic Society</i>, vol. 1, ser. 7, 1961, pp. 67–70, p. 68 specifically. Available <a href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/i40099831" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/i40099831" rel="nofollow">here</a> online.</p><p><br /></p><p>4. Ibid.</p><p><br /></p><p>5. As reported to me by [USER=57495]@zumbly[/USER].</p><p><br /></p><p>6. Head and Poole, op. cit., p. 56.</p><p><br /></p><p>7. Schachter, op. cit., pp. 69-70.</p><p><br /></p><p>8. See, for example, the <a href="https://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/boeotia/orchomenus/i.html" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/boeotia/orchomenus/i.html" rel="nofollow">Wildwinds listing for Orchomenus BMC 39</a> and a <a href="https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces146642.html" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces146642.html" rel="nofollow">listing at Numista</a>: "Bronze Æ12, Orchomenos of Boeotia." <i>Numista</i>, en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces146642.html.</p><p><br /></p><p>9. See "Teleia." <i>Teleia | Facts, Information, and Mythology</i>, 5 Feb. 2008, pantheon.org/articles/t/teleia.html and also "Hera." <i>Wikipedia</i>, Wikimedia Foundation, 12 Dec. 2020, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hera.</p><p><br /></p><p>10. The ancient sources include Corinna, Pausanius, and Diodorus Siculus, and are enumerated at "THESPIA." <i>THESPIA (Thespeia) - Boeotian Naiad Nymph of Greek Mythology</i>, <a href="http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheThespia.html" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheThespia.html" rel="nofollow">www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheThespia.html</a>.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="Roman Collector, post: 5316618, member: 75937"]I want to thank [USER=57495]@zumbly[/USER] for providing me numismatic references to research this coin and its background. The ancient forum at CT is truly the friendliest, most helpful coin community on the net! I am hoping some experts on mythology ([USER=103829]@Jochen1[/USER]) or Greek coinage ([USER=82322]@Ed Snible[/USER]) can provide me with more information. My son gave me this enigmatic little bronze of Thespiae in Boeotia for Christmas. I love it as much as I am curious about it! [ATTACH=full]1224525[/ATTACH] Greek Æ 12.5 mm, 3.37 g, 3 h. Boeotia, Thespiae, late 3rd century BC? Obv: Female head, right, wearing kalathos/modius/polos and veil. Rev: ΘEΣΠI/EΩN either side of chelys (lyre); all within laurel wreath. Refs: BMC 8.92,14-22; Sear 2461; SNG Cop 406-7; BCD [I]Boiotia[/I] 612; Head [I]Boeotia[/I] p. 94, pl. VI, 13. Several things about this coin remain unexplained. About the only things known with certainty are the city which issued it, that a veiled female head appears on its obverse, and that a lyre appears on its reverse. [B]AN UNCERTAIN DATE[/B] There is no consensus on the date it was issued. I have seen estimates ranging from "early-middle 4th century BC"[1] to "BC 146-27."[2] Schachter, based upon a date assigned by Dr. ESG Robinson and his conclusion that Arsinoë III is depicted on its obverse, assigns at date of "about 210-208 BC."[3] [B]A FEMALE[/B] Similarly, there is no consensus on the identity of the female figure on the obverse. Many catalogues (e.g. SNG Cop, BMC, HGC) simply describe the obverse figure as female, without attempting further identification, and that is the most intellectually honest approach, given our incomplete knowledge of the issue. Be that as it may, it's dissatisfying in its vagueness, and a few numismatists have attempted to identify the figure with a deity or historical figure. [B]ARSENOE III[/B] Schachter, as noted above, identifies the figure as Arsinoë III for several reasons.[4] The Thespians of Boeotia were the organizers of the [I]Museia, [/I]a music festival held at the sanctuary of the Muses on Mount Helikon. Toward the end of the third century BC, the [I]Museia[/I] underwent a reorganization to raise its status: certain competitions were henceforth to be [URL='http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dstefani%2Fths'][I]στεφανιταί[/I][/URL], a competition which awarded a [I]stephanos[/I] (laurel wreath) to the winner. He notes the coin's devices support an association with the [I]Museia[/I]: the lyre symbolizes a musical festival and the laurel wreath the stephanos awarded to the victor. Noting that inscriptions date the reorganization of the festival to 215-208 BC, and that three inscriptions note that Ptolemy and his queen financed the festivals, he concludes that Ptolemy IV of Egypt and his wife Arsinoë III are the persons referred to in the inscriptions. Noting a similarity between the portrait on these tiny bronze coins of Thespiae and that of Arsinoë III on a [URL='https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3359951']gold octodrachm[/URL] (BMFA 2286; Svoronos 1165), he concludes this Egyptian queen is the figure on the coin. [B]HERA[/B] Elsewhere, the author of the relevant volume of HCG writes, "In earlier catalogues, the veiled bust is often identified as the Ptolemaic queen, Arsinoë III, in the guise of a Muse, but a more recent study suggests that the pan-Boiotian goddess, Hera Teleia (as herself), is intended. She also appears on a contemporary bronze issue of Orchomenos, perhaps indicating that the coins were struck in the context of the festival of the Greater Daidala, which involved many, if not all, of the Boiotian cities."[5] The issue of Orchomenos in question appears to be BMC 39, which Head and Poole attribute to Hera.[6] Interestingly, Schachter does not identify the female figure on the coins of Orchemenos to Hera, but to one of the [I]Charites[/I]. He believes such coins depict Arsinoë III also but in the guise of a [I]Charis[/I].[7] Other online sources attribute the figure on these coins of Orchemenos to "Arsinoe III (as Hera)."[8] I do not know on what basis these coins attribute the figure to Hera or Arsinoë III. Apart from being a Boeotian goddess, I have little reason to believe the coin depicts Hera Teleia in particular. Teleia was the epithet of Hera used in her avatar as "Hera the Matron," a wedding goddess.[9] The presence of a lyre and laurel wreath have little to do with Hera and I think any attempt to identify the obverse figure with a deity should also attempt to explain the presence of the devices on the reverse. Moreover, while I admit that Schachter's identification of the figure as Arsinoë is possible, I'm not sure it's even plausible and it strikes me as fanciful if not special pleading. This explanation depends entirely on a certain date of 215-208 BC for the coin's production and I'm not sure the available data establishes a date of minting with such accuracy. [B]A NEW INTERPRETATION[/B] I propose a simple explanation: the figure on the obverse is Thespia, the Naiad-nymph of the spring, well or fountain of the town of Thespiae. Pausanias (ix. 26. § 4) and Corinna (Fragment 674) each note the town is named after her. According to ancient mythographers,[10] Thespia was a daughter of the river-god Asopos and was abducted to the town by the god Apollo. The identification of the obverse with Thespia makes perfect sense. The town's namesake is on the obverse, while the lyre and laurel wreath, being attributes of Apollo, honor the god who brought her to the city. ~~~ Notes: 1. "Thespiae, Boiotia, Early - Mid 4th Century B.C. [I]Forum Ancient Coins[/I], [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?zpg=15265']www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?zpg=15265[/URL]. 2. Head, Barclay V., and Reginald Stuart Poole. [I]A Catalogue of the Greek Coins in the British Museum: Central Greece (Locris, Phocis, Boeotia and Euboea)[/I]. Longmans, by Order of the Trustees, 1884, p. 92. Available [URL='https://www.forumancientcoins.com/dannyjones/British%20Museum%20Books/Catalog%20of%20Greek%20Coins%20in%20the%20British%20Museum%20-%20Central%20Greece.pdf']here[/URL] online. 3. Schachter, Albert. "A Note on the Reorganization of the Thespian Museia."[I] The Numismatic Chronicle and Journal of the Royal Numismatic Society[/I], vol. 1, ser. 7, 1961, pp. 67–70, p. 68 specifically. Available [URL='https://www.jstor.org/stable/i40099831']here[/URL] online. 4. Ibid. 5. As reported to me by [USER=57495]@zumbly[/USER]. 6. Head and Poole, op. cit., p. 56. 7. Schachter, op. cit., pp. 69-70. 8. See, for example, the [URL='https://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/boeotia/orchomenus/i.html']Wildwinds listing for Orchomenus BMC 39[/URL] and a [URL='https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces146642.html']listing at Numista[/URL]: "Bronze Æ12, Orchomenos of Boeotia." [I]Numista[/I], en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces146642.html. 9. See "Teleia." [I]Teleia | Facts, Information, and Mythology[/I], 5 Feb. 2008, pantheon.org/articles/t/teleia.html and also "Hera." [I]Wikipedia[/I], Wikimedia Foundation, 12 Dec. 2020, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hera. 10. The ancient sources include Corinna, Pausanius, and Diodorus Siculus, and are enumerated at "THESPIA." [I]THESPIA (Thespeia) - Boeotian Naiad Nymph of Greek Mythology[/I], [URL='http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheThespia.html']www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheThespia.html[/URL].[/QUOTE]
Your name or email address:
Do you already have an account?
No, create an account now.
Yes, my password is:
Forgot your password?
Stay logged in
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
Whose portrait appears on this Thespian bronze?
>
Home
Home
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Activity
Recent Posts
Forums
Forums
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Posts
Competitions
Competitions
Quick Links
Competition Index
Rules, Terms & Conditions
Gallery
Gallery
Quick Links
Search Media
New Media
Showcase
Showcase
Quick Links
Search Items
Most Active Members
New Items
Directory
Directory
Quick Links
Directory Home
New Listings
Members
Members
Quick Links
Notable Members
Current Visitors
Recent Activity
New Profile Posts
Sponsors
Menu
Search
Search titles only
Posted by Member:
Separate names with a comma.
Newer Than:
Search this thread only
Search this forum only
Display results as threads
Useful Searches
Recent Posts
More...