I don't mind questions like that in the least - thanks for your consideration. On the occasions when I have bought non-CAC coins, listed them for sale, then subsequently submitted them to CAC and received stickers, I have never changed/raised my asking price. I have, however, seemingly been able to sell such coins more easily on many occasions.
I agree completly. that's why I said a safer bet on accurate grade but the eye appeal is in the eye of the beholder.
I like to collect a variety of US coins, and with some series, or issues, I don't feel all that comfortable with my evaluation skills. When I bought a proof Walker, I felt more confident that it was properly graded, with the CAC sticker on it. I haven't yet paid a premium for the "green bean," however.
While I don't need CAC to tell me what is solid for the grade I do understand there are many collectors that do not know how to grade and CAC greatly benefits them. As a seller, from what I have noticed on auctions, certain series that get the CAC sticker tend to sell for much more than the cost of the sticker. As a buyer, I don't care if it is RAW, Slabbed or if it has a CAC sticker so If I pay a premium for a coin that has the sticker it's because it has eye appeal and not because of the sticker. That is premium I would pay for RAW as well.
Mike, I agree 100%, especially about the $500 value. Just like most coins less than $200 don't really benefit by being slabbed, it seems very unnecessary to CAC a coin under $500. I would like to thank you, Mark, and 900 for adding some reason to this topic. The unrelenting and ignorant bashing of the CAC in this and other threads is out of control. I have been a supporter of the CAC since their inception and feel as though I have benefited greatly by their service. As someone who is unable to attend major coin shows due to work obligations, the CAC sticker is a very valuable tool when buying coins sight unseen over the internet viewing only a photo. I think Mark also hit it right on the head that the CAC benefits dealers as well by greatly increasing liquidity.
Here is why you don't buy coins sight unseen - I think they both got it wrong. Heritage Auction - not knocking anybody. I personally feel it means you need to form your own opinion on the coin and the grade - with good pictures. Sorry for the interruption - back to my auction searching.
I don't use CAC but then again I don't have a single coin that I could send them. The don't accept Roosevelt Dimes so I am SOL.
Mark -- what is it you don't like about the IH? It is not one of my series, but I am curious. As for CAC, I don't want to pay a premium for it, but I find it a useful comfort when I purchase a coin if the sticker is there. There are plenty of CAC'ed coins I have passed on and plenty without the sticker that I have purchased, but I recognize that John Albanese is certainly a better grader than I am. I do think it will help resale some day if I ever need to sell the coin.
On this IHC the ribbon is worn down flat into the hair along with the feather and diamond detail. Not an XF coin. I think this coin was given a bump by the tpg for the variety, then blessed by CAC. Granted 1888 is a tough year I do not think this coin deserved the grade. I have been looking for some pictures of CAC approved key date IHC's. Those are typically overgraded - in my opinion. And I have no problem if you have and like CAC approved coins. I also do not have a problem if you pay a premium for them - for the right coins I might also. I completely agree it will help sell them later. My sole complain with CAC is this - "if it has a CAC sticker, it must be correctly graded and deserve a premium". That is my only complaint - I just get the impression at times people want to say "CAC" and I should fall all over myself to worship the coin. I think at my level I need to think for myself and take a few lumps. And yes, if I bought really big dollar coins(5k or more) then a CAC sticker would probably make me feel a whole lot better. I think it really becomes more critical at a higher level than what I collect at. So don't think I don't like CAC - just not as sight unseen. Again my humble little opinion.
Ooops - I did forget to mention that I think I have exactly one CAC approved coin in my collection(maybe 2). It was and is a nice coin.
Mark, In all fairness, you picked a coin that has a population of 2/23 in XF40 to criticize the grading and CAC approval. For coins of this rarity, as Leadfoot has pointed out on more than one occasion, they are often ranked rather than graded. That means by strict standards the coin might not meet the requirements for XF40, but if it was better than any VF coin the graders had ever seen, it might very well get the bump up to XF. I am not saying you are wrong, I just don't think this is the best example of how the CAC is not usefull.
Um, Lehigh, try this out for “unrelenting and ignorant.” These coins you maintain you buy “sight unseen over the internet viewing only a photo” just so happen to all come in TPG slabs (lest there be nothing to stick the little beans on?) with full refund less return shipping and handling policies should the buyer be unsatisfied after having viewed and supposedly graded the coins in hand. As such, one more time, what “benefit” do these little green beans provide one? Sorry, I still don’t see it, outside of that they may indeed substitute for one’s lack of confidence in one’s grading skills.
I am so confused now - wasn't CAC actually suppose to help the really high dollar coins? You know make the collector feel comfortable they have an acurately graded coin? Doesn't this just mean any 1888/7 should get a CAC sticker as long as it is in a PCGS holder? Please keep in mind I am not talking price here - just grading. Are you saying I should only look at common dates and grades? Should I limit the price range also? When is it fair to disagree with a TPG and CAC? Again - note I am not talking price here. Does that mean if another 10 or 20 of these are found that are XF40 - would they recall that coin and take the sticker off? I can't see how this helps to just ignore the rarer coins.
Okay, you completely misunderstood. With coins of this rarity, the TPG's and CAC use different grading standards than they would for a common date coin. You are grading this coin based on how a $100 IHC would be graded. They are not. They are ranking the coin based on previous examples they have seen. If this coin was better than the few VF's they had seen, it will grade XF even if it does not meet the strict standard set for the series. It is not that the TPG's or CAC graded the coin wrong, it is your inability to understand how they grade these coins. Sorry, didn't want to go there, but you kinda made me.
Paul - it really does not upset me with that statement. I understand how tpgs grade these coins. And now it is okay for CAC to approve. I, personally think you just proved that if the population is really small and a truly rare coin - CAC won't really mean anything. The population is so small it just won't matter - at that price and rarity it really does not matter. Well other than the seller try to milk someone for a few more bucks - which I really don't mind. Okay - lets go to common date every day with lots of graded coins. Define rare coins? Since NGC and PCGS have different standards - when they look at coins from PCGS do they apply a common standard or PCGS standards? When they look at NGC coins do they apply a common standard or a NGC standard? If they are not applying a common standard to both PCGS and NGC - how do I know when I get one accurately graded? Also define a population amount where I can go and compare some CAC graded coins.
Think about it like this... In an internet transaction, the TPG grade can give one a certain level of confidence. Similarly, by receiving a green bean, JA has given the coin a thumbs up -- an additional level of confidence to some. In a transaction where you're essentially betting shipping on if you'll like a coin, I say that the more levels of confidence the better. It's just that simple. That's not to say that there won't be coins that are appealing that don't make it past the TPGs, or fail to earn a bean from the CAC, but rather an additional level of confidence in a transaction based on a photo. At least that's the way I see it....Mike
Very well put, Mike. I'll do most anything to avoid standing in line at the post office, buying padded mailers, and paying all those little fees.
For whatever it's worth Mark, I agree with ya. No way that coin is an XF, even by PCGS standards. And for CAC to condone the grade and approve it, only makes it that much worse. I do not now nor will I ever approve of "pricing" or "ranking" coins, even though I fully understand it. If coins are going to be graded, then they should at the very least be graded according to the written standards used by the TPG. Give a coin a grade bump because of eye appeal and I'll back it all the way. But give a coin a grade bump because of value, pedigree or rarity and I'll disclaim it and argue the point with my dying breath. Unless - they (the TPG's) get off their duffs, stand up and admit that this is what they are doing and re-write their standards to reflect the different standards to be used for these coins. If they would do this, even though I would still disagree with the grade assigned, at least I could say that they were being honest about it. But grading contrary to their standards is tantamount to lying to the public to me. And that I can never condone.
