Featured White Whale Acquired: Not the Usual Athens

I consider this a good question but since I do not collect modern coins, I have no idea. I strongly suspect that the answer to the question if asked 100-200 years ago would have been 'yes' but modern adjectival usages of 'ethnic' as in 'ethnic group' might have taken over the meaning of the word to the point that the noun 'ethnic' alone might not be understood as it once would have been. Language changes over time and place. Terms important to special and specific uses can conflict with the general language. In a quick look, I was unable to find a dictionary online that admitted a definition of the noun 'ethnic' other than 'person who is a member of an ethnic group'. Does anyone have a print on paper unabridged dictionary? I know they stopped printing them a few years back but I wonder what was last printed before they started removing words and definitions for online use.

'Ethnic' as the name or inscription stating the country was part of the language when I learned it. No longer.

 

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That's why I asked about this. I could not find the definition implied in the description of the coin in the OP.

I think I'll check that big, fat dictionary that you see in the public library sometime...

 

Interesting. The Numiswiki definition implies that "ethnic" is a noun when used in this numismatic sense. Modern dictionaries show only adjectival use.

I texted my mom to see if she had an old dictionary. She did. Unfortunately her dictionary isn't very old-- a Webster's unabridged from 2002:



That's basically the same as I'm finding in various online dictionaries.

But wait-- old books are available to read online, maybe we can find some old dictionaries!

As it happens, Webster's 1828 dictionary has its own website. I tried there. In addition to the expected adjectival form, there was a noun but not the numismatic meaning:

Ethnic
ETH'NIC

ETH'NICAL, adjective [Latin ethnicus; Gr. from nation from the root of G. heide, heath, woods, whence heathen. See Heathen.]

Heathen; pagan; pertaining to the gentiles or nations not converted to christianity; opposed to Jewish and Christian.

ETH'NIC, noun A heathen; a pagan.

This dictionary entry is from 1828...

how old are you, Doug?
...

Perhaps the numismatic meaning of ethnic is hobby-specific?

Edited: reading the 2002 dictionary entry again, it does allow for the numismatic use.

 

Amazing story. That coin must have cost a fortune.

 

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ethnic

Four noun meanings are given. The fourth, and therefore most obscure in the opinion of the dictionary writer, is

1. (in classical scholarship) the demonym of an Ancient Greek city
   • 2006. Cohen. The Hellenistic Settlements in Syria, the Red Sea Basin & North Africa, 151.
     "Coinage with the ethnic ΑΝΤΙΟΧΕΩΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΕΥΦΡΑΤΗΝ survives from the mid-second century A.D."

 

If we now are offending someone using 'ethnic' in this way, must we switch to demonym? Sadly this word also refers to the people rather than the place. Do note that the majority of Roman Provincial coins listed not the city of issue but a genitive plural "of the Marcianopolitans" for example. This is not a reference to race but citizenship. Language is a problem when we each customize it in our own way.

 

Thanks so much! So it is used "in classical scholarship," and maybe that's why it's so hard to find it in our dictionaries...

 

Now we know it it specific to "classical scholarship." Could you show us what that 2002 entry says about the numismatic case?

 

It doesn't say it directly, but the entry does show "ethnic" as a noun, referring back to the adjectival definition. The adjectival definition allows for "...a large group of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural background...".

 

Demonym? Are you trying to offend those who identify as Demonkin? I demand a safe space with bubbles, Play-Doh, pictures of cute puppies on the walls, and tissue paper to dry my perpetually offended millennial eyes.

 

!!!

Interesting how certain words have mutated over time and lost their original meaning.

https://ideas.ted.com/20-words-that-once-meant-something-very-different/

 

This is what the ANS has to say about "Ethnic" (http://numismatics.org/seminar/termsmethods/):

Introduction to Numismatic Terms and Methods

The ethnic may or may not be present. The term originates in Greek and is most commonly encountered with reference to Greek coins. It refers to the name of a tribe, nation, or city-state responsible for issuing a coin. ΑΘΕ ("Athens") and ΣΥΡΑΚΟΣΙΩΝ ("of the Syracusans") are ethnics; the only ethnics employed on Roman coins are ROMANO (on early AR and AE and ROMA (on Republican silver and aes). When the entire legend consists of an ethnic, the terms are synonymous. The term ethnic is used seldom if at all in other fields.

 

Nobody is being offended, I don't think. I wouldn't expect that too many people here at CT are that sensitive...

I personally would like to use demonym when referring to non-Greek, non-Roman coins. I am interested in this terminology because I write about non-classic, contemporary coins, and I'd like to use the correct words. You know, those hyper-specific words that hold lots of meaning for numismatists, or what the linguists call words with a "heavy semantic load" so that my writing is "tight," sounds like it's written by an expert in the field (even though it's not) and genre-specific.

 

OED should list it. The version in my library is 13 volumes, I think, but the ‘86 version is almost double that, I believe. It should indicate when the word started being used in this respect, with a citation. OED is amazing.

 

That coin is amazing. Thanks for sharing it with us.

 

What a gorgeous coin and such a significant piece of world history. Congratulations!

 

Just saw this thread...
That is a fantastic coin! Congratulations on adding it to your magnificent collection and sharing it with us. We all share a beautifull hobby.
John

 

thankyou for the information Joe, very intriguing.

 

From the British Museum
If you think that the Peloponesian war went badly that was nothing to the mistake of thumbing your nose to Roma!
87/86 BC New Style Gold.