Which Would Be Harder To Counterfeit?

Which would be harder to counterfeit in terms of Gold Content:

1 oz AMERICAN GOLD EAGLE
91.67% Gold, 3% Silver, balance Copper
1.0909 Troy Oz
33.931 Grams
Diameter: 32.7 mm
Thickness: 2.87 mm

OR

1 oz AMERICAN GOLD BUFFALO
99.99% Gold
1 Troy Oz
31.103 Grams
Diameter: 32.7 mm
Thickness: 2.95 mm

I'm trying to figure out which is the "safer" option in terms of avoiding counterfeiting down the line when counterfeiting methods get better. Yes, I know all about the Canadian Maple Leaf anti-counterfeiting measures. But I am only interested in American Gold Coins. Thank you!

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

I suppose the 91.67% might be difficult. Might be more difficult to get the exact mix of silver and copper.

 

I think both are easily counterfeitable.

 

Well, the good news is that anything denser than gold is probably going to be hard to come by, so most counterfeits would be distinguishable by weight. I don't imagine counterfeiting would be likely for either, so it's probably a matter of personal preference. I guess the buffalo would have fewer materials which would be close enough in weight to try to pass for it as it is a purer alloy. Even tungsten would be a little too light at 19.25 g/cc compared to 19.28 g/cc for gold.

I think rhenium is the only metal which is denser than gold which is not either radioactive or more expensive than gold itself. (Well, sometimes platinum is cheaper than gold--I believe some historical counterfeits were made of platinum with an outer coating of gold.)

 

What makes you say that?

 

Human nature makes them both susceptible. Most members on the bullion forum probably do not have balances that can measure to x.xxx grams and those that do probably do not calibrate them regularly. Secondly give a member 10% off for Black friday or 15% Christmas deal and they will buy and stash it away until their passing, thinking they really made out well and snickering. Until XRF analyzers are incorporated into a cell phone, all are susceptible. If a person has handled them before and looked for ID marks with a scope rather than just asking us with a fuzzy photo or two, then they would probably notice it. Know the seller ( so pay the premiums to get them straight from the mint in mint sealed package , buy TPG encapsulated, or from someone you trust. IMO, Jim

 

Because there's already counterfeits of both

 

Thanks Jim!

I plan on buying the coin from a reputable dealer. My concern is not in BUYING something Counterfeit. My concern is in SELLING the coins.

The Chinese have already successfully counterfeited Historic American Silver Coins and have sold lots of them on eBay and they are already part of the circulated coins out there (Sitting Liberty's, and others). My concern is with Gold coins being worth so much more, how simple or difficult a 1 ounce American gold coin will be to counterfeit and how simple or difficult it will be to identify a 1 ounce gold counterfeit so that when I go to sell it in 10+ years from now, how much of a problem will I face.

"The Eidolon" had a good point with the Buffalos having almost 100% gold in them, that being tougher to duplicate in terms of weight. That's the kind of thing I'm looking for. Maybe the Eagles are easier to counterfeit because they have other metals in them. In which case in 20 years from now or so when/if I or my descendants try to sell them, which of the 2 coins will be easier to authenticate due to it being less counterfeit-able?

 

Wow! I didn't know that! Do you have sources for that? Links?

 

Yep, counterfeits have existed for a while now. They even counterfeit gold bars in packaging. And they can fool many dealers.

 

I have an electronic scale which is very accurate to at least 2 digits. Somewhat helpful.

 

I would think in the long run the Buffalos would be easier to fake. Much easier to get .999 fine gold than .917. And if you use a lower density material but make it thicker then plate with pure gold you can get the weight right and it would have a decent chance at beating an XRF gun. that's how they make the fake gold one ounce bars.

 

In the last couple of months there's been an influx of articles of "gold bars getting into world markets".

But this is *nothing* new.
Other than the fake AGEs, etc and what brought it to "light" was that in 2017 JP Morgan Chase found fake gold bars in their inventory.

Here's a good article covering more in detail about that problem ==> https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019...ry-crisis-fake-kilobars-flood-physical-market

==> https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3774288

here's an article going back to 2016 of gold bars, the Pamp swiss ones, I recall the apmex fakes, etc etc.
==> https://coinweek.com/bullion-report/counterfeit-gold-silver-beware-fake-pamp-suisse-gold-bars/

Here's a 2016 article about fake AGEs ==> https://www.nbcnews.com/business/bu...ake-gold-silver-coins-flooding-market-n591201

another 2018 article ==> https://coinweek.com/counterfeits/avoid-becoming-victim-fake-gold-coin/


on aliexpress, right now, you can get 5 pieces of 1 oz bar of Credit Swiss for $13.64.

So just keep in mind this is nothing new. You have to protect yourself and on way of doing that is to buy from only High Qualified Dealers.

For instance there's a local dealer around here who buys and sells gold. I'd never buy from them. But then there's another high end dealer who I would buy from.

But you have to d your own research. For instance, in the videos above from Colby J you can easily make out the differences. But, keep in mind that is ONE EXAMPLE and not all counterfeits are that distinguishable.

So you have to check with who you want to buy from to see how they authenticate it. Of course, buying NEW AGEs always has an advantage. I used to buy "any year" gold, now I've just opted to buy the new year AGEs .. that is when I consider the price at a good level.

 

The cost. I think there are counterfeits of both out there and they are gold. Need I say more?

 

When I was collecting gold coins I only purchased from the mint or NGC/PCGS graded coins.

 

JC, thanks for posting those videos. Very informative.

Looking up certification numbers on PCGS and/or NGC helps ID legit coins, right?

I was hoping to take the counterfeit course @ FUN in January but as it will be my 1st time attending and I'm time-pressed I may have to save it for a future date.

 

Thank you all for your responses.

Re the JPMorgan Chase counterfeit bars - that was about counterfeiting the source of the gold bars. The bars were 100% gold but it was illegal gold that was made to look identical to valid gold from houses like Pamp Suisse and with duplicate serial numbers. That was hundreds of millions of dollars of illegally gotten gold (stolen or mined illegally) that was deceptively moved into the gold market by way of counterfeiting. That is not what I'm concerned about.

To Clarify - I'm not concerned where I buy it from as I will pay the premiums to buy current year coins from trusted dealers. My concern is down the line when I want to SELL it 10 years down the line, and how difficult authenticating it will be for the BUYER. I believe this will have a lot to do with which coins are harder to counterfeit in terms of their valid Gold Content.

If the Chinese are making identical 99.99% gold counterfeit Buffalos then a bullion buyer will not care because his concern is the gold content. But if the counterfeits contain less than 1 oz of gold, then THAT is a problem.

THIS is my concern, and I was wondering if anyone familiar with counterfeiting knows which coin is easier to counterfeit in terms of GOLD CONTENT.

 

These are great videos. Thank you for the links!

I've been searching around as well and from what I can see, there are lots of counterfeit AGE but not Buffalos. The exception is counterfeit Buffalos in slabs. But outside the slabs, I haven't found much on counterfeit Buffalos. Is this because Buffalos are more difficult to counterfeit?

If that is the case, this is the information I am looking for.

 

If you're overly concerned you can always get them graded, even if it's just like ANACS that's still good enough for authentication and would eliminate that problem.

Not exactly, many of the products have some premium which is completely lost if it's fake even if it's real gold. At that point you're basically left with just selling under spot to someone who will send it to a smelter or someone who really wants a fake one, most buyers wouldn't want it