Which TPG do you use, and why do you use it?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by jcakcoin, Feb 20, 2011.

  1. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    As a generalization, PCGS holdered coins do sell for more money than NGC graded coins. But there is a logical reason why that happens. PCGS is more conservative in their grading of several series and more conservative in assigning premium gem grades for most series. So while there is a very good chance that a PCGS coin might sell for more, there is also a very real risk that the coin submitted will receive a lower grade from PCGS than NGC. Under that scenario, it would be prudent for the submitter to choose NGC instead of PCGS.

    The key to submitting coins is to be able to accurately predict how each service would grade each coin. If you can do that consistently, you can pick and choose which coins would make more money in NGC holders and which coins would make more money in PCGS holders. Simply sending off every coin to PCGS after downing a pitcher of Kool-aid is not going to work.

    At this point, I truly believe you should change you avatar to the Kool-aid logo, because you are addicted to the stuff. I have already stated the risks associated with submitting coins blindly to PCGS with the expectation that you will get more money. However, it seems that you believe that anything PCGS is better than anything not PCGS.


    Let's assume that PCGS graded coins always drive higher prices. That means that when you sell the coins you will make more money than if they were graded by NGC. But unless you bought the coin in an NGC holder and crossed it over to PCGS (which is all but impossible), you had to pay a higher price to obtain the PCGS graded coin in the first place. The only thing that matters with regards to the certification is how the coin performs over a period of time. If a PCGS graded coin typically sold for $50 more than the same coin in an NGC holder five years ago and the PCGS coin sells for $50 more now, then there is no advantage in buying PCGS graded coins versus NGC graded coins.

    Your unconditional support of PCGS as the best only proves that you have much to learn about the hobby. And normally, I really wouldn't care, but I consider your advice on this subject bad advice, and feel compelled to post my dissenting viewpoint.
     
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. rld14

    rld14 Custom User Title

    Doug,

    You can always find examples of this. However I watched, via simulcast, the FUN auction. I didn't grab the links, but here's what I posted earlier about the FUN Auction back in January on another thread. Bear in mind that I am basing my results on the series that I pay attention to, as I said. I'm told that an NGC FBL Franklin carries much heavier weight than a PCGS one as NGC is much tougher on FBLs than PCGS. But I don't collect Franklins and don't pay much attention to the market on them.

    These results were every instance, in a major auction, where there was a PCGS and an NGC coin in the same grade up for sale in the same auction.

    13-S Barber Quarters:

    NGC 66: $28,750
    NGC 67: $40,250
    PCGS 66+: $37,375

    16-P Walkers

    NGC 65: $1,380
    PCGS 65: $2,185

    18-P Walkers

    NGC 65: $2,300
    PCGS 65: $3,450 (Another sold in December for the same price)

    27-S Walkers:

    PCGS 64: 2,990
    PCGS 64: 2,990
    NGC 64: 5,750 (Super nice strike, gorgeous coin)

    34-D Walkers:

    NGC 66: $1,610
    PCGS 66: $1,610
    PCGS 66+: $2,760

    35-S Walkers:

    PCGS 66: $5,175
    NGC 66+: $3,450

    17-P T1 SLQs

    NGC 66: $1,207.50
    PCGS 66: $1,495
    PCGS 66: $1,840

    Your Barber Quarters were also common dates, some of which sold over a year apart and the premium on those NGC coins was under 10%. None of those were better date coins either although the 95 Half can be tricky in Gem.

    Some of the most valuable coins that I own are in NGC plastic, but based upon what I saw at FUN, I would be a fool if I didn't consider crossing them to PCGS assuming that they would cross at the same grade IF I wanted to sell them. Also, one of my favorite coins (A beautifully toned 28-S SLQ in 65) is in an NGC holder and it's staying there as well.

    Remember, I have never said that NGC can't grade, from where I sit I think that they do a great job. The problem that I see with NGC is that the market does not, in the series that I collect, value them as strongly as they do PCGS so when it comes down to me sending a coin for grading, if I am concerned with liquidity, I'm going to send them to PCGS everything else being equal.

    Bill
     
  4. rld14

    rld14 Custom User Title

    Oh, CAC is in Bedmister I think. It's just off the last exit on 287 (heading south) before you hit 78.

    You have to apply to be a collector member on their website, and you have to be an ANA member to do so. There's no charge to be a collector member.

    Bill
     
  5. rld14

    rld14 Custom User Title

    I'd also like to kinda clarify my position here... Doug is right and I have never argued that a PQ coin will bring PQ money and you certainly saw that at the FUN sale with the 27-S Walkers.

    HOWEVER! As I posted, it seems to me that when there's a PCGS coin and an NGC coin offered at the same time, in one of the series that I collect, more often than not the PCGS coin is the one that brings the premium.

    Lehigh also brings up some VERY valid points as well, knowing where a TPG will grade coins, and understanding that, is very crucial if you're submitting raw coins or playing the crackout/crossover game. PCGS can be VERY tough on toned coins, NGC is more accepting of them as an example. A dealer friend of mine was able to buy an original, sealed bag of Morgans and in it were some great toners. PCGS slaughtered him on the toned coins, cracked out, NGC ended up grading them and a bunch got stars. Meanwhile I bought a couple of NGC 64 GSA CC Dollars, cracked them out (82-84s no huge loss) and got 65s out of them at PCGS. IMO PCGS is too easy on CC Morgans.
     
  6. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    It depends on the series, on some PCGS is tougher and others NGC is tougher.

    And yes I agree, always have agreed, that as a general rule the PCGS coins will bring better money. But - a very large part of the reason for that is because there are so many plastic buyers out there. If people would get over the PCGS is better no matter what crap and look at the coins instead of the plastic, the rest of that price difference would go away.

    I say the rest of it because it used to be a whole lot worse than it is now. In the last 6 to 8 years the prices that coins in NGC slabs bring has gained a lot of ground compared to similar coins in PCGS slabs. But that's because a lot of people have wised up - they started looking at the coins.

    And rld - none of those auctions I linked are a year apart, but a couple are 6 months apart. Point is though, I didn't have to search through page after page to find them. I just looked on the first page that comes up in the search. And if it's that easy to find them, then it happens quite often.

    And I did try to find coins that were similar to each other. In other words I didn't pick an NGC coin with monster toning or anything vs a PCGS coin that didn't have any toning. In those cases I posted the coins are similar. But the NGC coins did bring higher prices.

    All I'm trying to do is to get folks to realize that the coin makes a bigger difference than the plastic does. You'll be better off if you realize that. Making blanket statements that one is always better than the other is foolish.
     
  7. jcakcoin

    jcakcoin New Member

    I didn't want to start a war here. I like coin collecting just as a hobby, with making cash secondary in this case. I don't live down the street from any TPG. 1000 miles is still too short. Also, I always look at the coin instead of the slab, so that's not a big deal

    jcakcoin
     
  8. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Don't worry about starting an argument. IMO, the most educational threads are the ones where things get heated. My guess is that you have learned quite a bit from the responses given in this thread. There are probably dozens of threads just like this one in the archives of this forum, but this one probably has some of the best information on the subject.
     
  9. jcakcoin

    jcakcoin New Member

    I have learned more in 15 days of CT than in 1500 days elsewhere
     
  10. rld14

    rld14 Custom User Title

    Doug,

    I'll be honest I did skim over those auctions rather quickly, but I thought I saw one coin from 09 and another from late 10 or 11.

    Anyhow... Do I agree with this? Nope, but the market does and it could flip the other way around in the future, you never know. There was a time, I have been told, that NGC was held in higher regard than PCGS. I have to say that I do like NGC, problem is.. if I have a coin that's gonna bring $30k in NGC plastic but might go $35k+ in PCGS plastic... then even if it takes 3 tries at $45 a pop to cross it it's money well spent.

    This is one of the reasons that I have been watching SLQs like a hawk... I am beginning to think about sending my slabbed unc set to Heritage. Before I do that though I'm going to try and get every one of them in a PCGS holder with a green bean on it :)

    Bill
     
  11. rld14

    rld14 Custom User Title

    To further clarify... I wholeheartedly agree that a large percentage of this is pure unadulterated bull... poop.

    I have seen truly nice coins even in ACG slabs (85-CC Morgan MS64 that was a, IMO, lock 65... and someone who I trust implicitly and who used to work as a grader agreed).

    I think that a few separate factors have hurt NGC in the eyes of some collectors.

    First is the set registry. A PCGS coin can reside in EITHER registry, yet an NGC coin cannot.

    Second is the PCGS Secure program and the Coin Sniffer plus the doctoring lawsuit. This has brought PCGS a lot of press, and whether or not you like it, one has to agree that a lot of collectors feel that they now have less chance of buying a doctored coin in a PCGS holder. I remember last year when I was at FUN I saw these coin scanners, and thought "Ya know, PCGS or NGC oughta use these". Then I saw the announcement!

    Third is the color issue, agree with it or don't (Lehigh I'd love your thoughts on this) but there's a lot of chatter and thought that I hear on the bourse floor, at club meetings, that if a coin has exceptional toning and is in a PCGS slab then you KNOW it's the real deal. Of course I KNOW of ATd coins that PCGS has holdered and I KNOW of NT coins that they refused to holder but again, it's perception.

    Fourth is NCS, a lot of people feel that this is a doctoring issue and that NGC does doctor coins because of NCS. The 93-S Morgan that they destroyed comes to mind.

    Fifth is the fact that they are part owned by Heritage, there was a thread on the CU boards about this not long ago. I don't know how well this sits with me either. OTOH, CU is publicly traded and Heritage could just as easily buy CU stock.

    But I still think that a lot of it is indeed perception, but perception is all it takes. Just like my cars... I have a Jaguar and a Lexus, the Lexus is an unreliable nightmare with atrocious service from 2 dealers and Lexus themselves. I would NEVER have another Lexus if you gave it to me. Meanwhile, the Jaguar has been nearly faultless, one of the best cars I have ever owned.

    But Lexus has a reputation of outstanding reliability and Jaguars have a reputation for falling apart.
     
  12. jcakcoin

    jcakcoin New Member

    Got another question to ask...

    Do you think that NGC may be biased (grading higher on purpose) on NCS cleaned coins (not that I have one), to make a statement
     
  13. howboutatrade

    howboutatrade Active Member

    Not a fan of coins in a slab....so none of the services. I have purchased, used, and sold coins both in and out of a slab. Much prefer the raw method...then again, I do not collect anything considered "high end". Biggest uses for TPG....protection and for those who will inherit the collection. I know for certain I have coins worth a chunk of change in a PCGS graded slab, that raw will bring quite a lot less. However, I like the consistent look across my collection and I will give up the $$ for the enjoyment of the coins (key dates, extra nice specimens) sitting along side the normal stuff. But that is me...to each his own. I have seen enough to realize the inconsistency in a slab...the pay for a grade slab efforts that appear to go on....and the difficulty of photographing a coin in a slab....since I buy a lot of coins online, pictures, patience, and price are much better than any TPG.
     
  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Yup.


    Again agree. Don't agree that it should be that way though.

    Yeah but they shouldn't. NGC uses the exact same equipment. But people just aren't as aware of that.

    Yeah, perception as observed through the lens of a Koolaid pitcher ;)

    A lot of people also feel that dipping a coin is doctoring too. But their collections are full of dipped coins, even though they don't know it. And all an NCS coin is - is a dipped coin.

    Now that's a new one on me. Sounds more like a distraction technique by PCGS fans trying to take the heat off of PCGS and the issue of David Hall selling PCGS slabbed coins.

    Of course it is perception, it's always been perception. I've always prefered to say it a different way - people will believe what they want to believe. And nothing will ever change their minds. Least of all minor things like facts.
     
  15. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    You did. But in a different group. Those being compared to each other were no more than 6 months apart.
     
  16. rld14

    rld14 Custom User Title

    That's a new one. PCGS has been touting this as exclusive technology, if NGC also has the same technology then they're fools for not announcing it all over as well.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page