When was PF changed to PP on solidi?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Tejas, May 27, 2021.

  1. Tejas

    Tejas Well-Known Member

    Does anybody know, when the legend DN .... PF AVG was changed to DN ... PP AVG? The change was made in Constantinople, while Italian mints continued to use PF instead of PP. I think this change was made some time in the 470s, but I am not sure. Was there a special reason for this change?
     
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  3. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Well-Known Member

    Leo II used P P on his solidi with Zeno in AD 473-474.

    Leo II with Zeno, AD 473-474.jpg
     
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  4. Tejas

    Tejas Well-Known Member

    Thanks a lot. Yes, it looks like the change was made during the reign of Leo, perhaps during the joint reign with Zeno to shorten the legend from PERPET or PERP to PP.

    In general, the Italien mints seemed to have stuck with the old PF. However, there seem to be exceptions. I have a solidus in the name of Anastasius, which has the sigle COMOB (Rome), "western style" and the PP in the obverse. I shall post a picture later.

    I needed the information, because I'm pondering some question regarding the activity of the Sirmium mint in around AD 500.
     
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  5. The Trachy Enjoyer

    The Trachy Enjoyer Well-Known Member

    Are you counting the barbaric tribes in this? They used PF sporadically until the mid 5th century (and the Burgundians often used PR)
     
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  6. Tejas

    Tejas Well-Known Member

    That is true, the solidi and tremisses of Gundobad and the tremisses of Sigismund in the name of Anastasius show PR. The solidi of Sigismund in the name of Justin I, however, have PP. Under Gundomar, they also show PP.
    The letter PF were used by the Ostrogoths until the end of their kingdom in 552.

    However, I was only interested in the first occurance of PP (perpetus Augustus) instead of PF (perpetuus felix Augustus), because I thought it could help solve a problem with Sirmium Half-Siliquae.
     
  7. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    I think rather than perpetuus felix, PF stands for pius felix, while PP stands for perpetuus. At least that's what I gathered from 4th century coinage that has PF PP AVG or PEP AVG (like the AE1s and the solidi of Jovian) or PER F AVG (on solidi and siliquae of Valens).
     
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  8. Tejas

    Tejas Well-Known Member

    Interesting, apparently there are different theories as to the meaning of PP and PF. In the “Festschrift für Wolfgang Hahn zum 70. Geburtstag”, Institut für Numismatik und Geldgeschichte of the University of Vienna, 2015, the author Andrea Casoli states in his contribution on an unpublished Tremissis of Anastasius (pp. 78) that PF AVG stands for perpetuus felix Augustus, while PP AVG means just perpetuus Augustus. The author quotes MEC 1, p. 35 and MIBE, pp 24 for it.
     
  9. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    If that were the case, then PF PP AVG would be rather redundant:

    JovianAE1_zpsomchpf3n.jpg

    There's also an earlier hint (but not too early) into what PF would likely mean, like for instance on this issue from Serdica for Florian, where his titles are PIVS F AVG:

    florian pivs.JPG
     
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  10. Victor_Clark

    Victor_Clark all my best friends are dead Romans Dealer

    117665.jpg

    a Constantine medallion with PIVS FELIX

    from acsearch--

    Medallion of 9 solidi, Trier circa 310, 40.26 g. IMP CONSTANTINVS PIVS FELIX AVG Laureate draped and cuirassed bust r. Rev. PRINCIPI IVVENTVTIS Constantine, in military attire, standing r., holding globe in l. hand and transverse spear in r.; in exergue, PTR. RIC 801 (this coin). C -. Bastien and Metzger, 446 (this coin). Toynbee pl. IX, 5 (this coin). J. Babelon and A. Duquenoy, Médallion d'or du Trésor d'Arras, 9 (this coin). M.R. Alföldi, CGT, 57, pl. 5, 1 (this coin). M. R. Alföldi, CG, 324 (this coin). IRI 3, 1972, pl. 69, 240 (this coin). A. Chasagnol, A propos des quinquennalia de Constantin, RN 1980, 113 (this coin). Depeyrot p. 501 (this coin). A. Baldwin, Four medallions from the Arras Hoard, NNM 28, 1926, fig. 1 (this coin). P. Bastien, Donativa, p. 126 and pl. IV, 6 (this coin).
    Unique. The largest medallion of Constantine
    The Great in existence, struck for the celebration of the fifth anniversary
    of his rise to power. A medallion of great prestige and importance,
    bearing a beautiful realistic portrait.
     
  11. Tejas

    Tejas Well-Known Member

    You (seth77 und Victor Clark) have certainly convinced me that PF stands for PIUS FELIX. Amazing to find such an error in a "Festschrift" (celebration journal) for someone like Wolfgang Hahn. Many thanks for this correction.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2021
  12. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    It was common for PIVS FELIX to be almost spelled out under Gordian III:

    GordianIII1PMTRPIIIICOSIIPP9285.jpg

    IMP GORDIANVS PIVS FEL AVG

    Under Heraclius (610-641) there are folles with "PERP" instead of "PP":

    SB839Heraclius15167.jpg

    Year 2. Cycicus.
     
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