When is an indentation on a coin a die gouge or PMD?

Discussion in 'Error Coins' started by Roseland3, Nov 29, 2020.

  1. Roseland3

    Roseland3 Active Member

    S20201129_001.jpg S20201129_002.jpg S20201129_004.jpg IMG_4527.JPG IMG_4525.JPG I received my order of the new Tallgrass Prairie quarters from the mint yesterday. I normally get three bags minted in Philadelphia. I live on the west coast and it is hard to get anywhere close to uncirculated P minted coins to fill the coin series books I have been putting away for my kids and the grandkids.

    Last year before we moved, I talked to the Northern Calif Rep for CONECA at the annual coin show held in my hometown. I asked when an indentation on a coin considered a die gouge or is it PMD. He told me if it is repeated on several of the same year, type and location on a coin, it could be something wrong with the die that produced the coin. If it was just one coin, it quite well is PMD. That being said, here is my question.

    I found twenty five of the new 2020 Tallgrass Prairie quarters in the first bag I opened to have the same scratch or gauge in the same spot and the same size on all twenty five of the coins. I have been on this site for a few years now and have read the comments from Paddyman, Chris, Meow, Collecting Nut, Mountain Man and all the other well versed members and have learned a ton of information. Is this considered a die gouge or PMD? The indentation I am referring to is the line just below the second stock.
     
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  3. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

  4. Burton Strauss III

    Burton Strauss III Well-Known Member

    An indentation on the die becomes an feature that sticks above the surface on the struck coin.

    Something stuck to the die - a scrap of metal - would show up as a indentation on the struck coin.

    But I'm having problems believing it would just sit there for many many strikes.
     
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  5. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    [​IMG]
    If you are talking about that mark that is parallel to the blade of grass, It looks recessed. The only way this could happen repeatedly is what is called a retained strike through. A chunk of the die or metal fillings and grease are retained in the die face, and strike many coins before falling off the die. It is the only way to get a repeated design on the coin,
     
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  6. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    I would like to see a better close-up of the area in question.
     
  7. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Could the coins have gone through some sort of machine that could have made the same mark on all the coins...now that I said it, it's unlikely...never mind.
     
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  8. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    Well, since there hasn't been very much feedback on your dilemma, I'd like to add a little food for thought.

    Many years ago, I was searching my Mint order, a $250 bag of 2007P UT SQ business strikes, when I noticed an unusual mark running along the edge of the railroad spike on the reverse. It was recessed, and I wondered how something like this could happen. My first thought was that it might have been caused by a retained strikethrough. I found more than 100 coins with this same anomaly, so I didn't think it was likely that a retained strikethrough could last that long without, either, falling off or wearing out. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know.

    In order for this recessed anomaly to occur on so many coins, it would have to show up as a raised area on the working die. But, if it isn't a strikethrough then maybe it was a scratch or gouge on the working hub which then transferred to the working die.

    Is it possible that the damage to a working hub was spotted, and it was removed from service before making more working dies? 100 coins seems like a lot, but there is no telling how many coins were actually struck with this one die. What if more than one working die was produced from this damaged hub? Why haven't more coins surfaced with this anomaly?

    Anyway, this has been my predicament for 13 years. Maybe it is the same as your predicament.
     
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  9. Roseland3

    Roseland3 Active Member

    Thanks for all the comments and ideas. I still have two more bags of 100 quarters to go through. I'll see what comes up. It is recessed into the coin, so it was something either struck through or stuck on the hub. I had the same issue on 14 Salt River quarters that had the same type gouge in the same place. Now, if I would have shown or talked about just one coin, I know the comments would of said that it is just PMD. Thanks cam9ball, by your comments, this has happened to you. I know the coins aren't worth any more than face value, but you can see that we may be quick on our assessment of what is PMD. Here are two more photos of the coin. That is as close as I can get with what equipment I have. Thanks again. S20201130_002.jpg S20201130_003.jpg
     
  10. Roseland3

    Roseland3 Active Member

    IMG_4530.JPG IMG_4531.JPG Up date. Bag #2 yielded 11 more coins with the same gouge
     
  11. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    Yes, I doubt that there is any value attached to this anomaly. I just want to know if my theory is possible or is there something I'm overlooking. ~Chris
     
  12. Mountain Man

    Mountain Man Well-Known Member

    With as many coins having the exact same mark, it must be from the working die, as mentioned by others, but it is interesting that it is incused and not raised, so it would be nice to know how it happened. Even at NAV, it is curious. Please keep us advised on this anomaly. @Fred Weinberg?
     
  13. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    I like the idea of a scratched hub.
     
  14. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    I wish I knew more about the production of the dies. For example, if a working hub is damaged in some way, why isn't it discovered before it is used to make the working dies?
     
  15. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    They probably are inspected before they are put into use, but if something happened to damage the hub after it was in use they might not catch it.
     
  16. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    Good point!
     
  17. Roseland3

    Roseland3 Active Member

    I went through the third bag this afternoon and came up with 17 more. Something had to have stuck to the hub die to produce the 53 coins exactly the same just in the three bags I got. Here are three more photos of todays find. IMG_4535.JPG S20201202_006.jpg IMG_4534.JPG
     
  18. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    I don't think it was because something stuck to the working hub. It is more likely that the working hub was scratched or gouged, leaving a recessed mark on it.

    Did you order all of the bags at the same time?
     
  19. Roseland3

    Roseland3 Active Member

    I order three bags of P minted quarters, a box of rolled P D & S quarters each time. The boxes all were dated the same 10-12-2020 so I guess they all were bagged out of the same lot. The lot of 14 Salt River quarters I found with the same gouge came out of a single 40 coin P minted roll.
     
  20. Burton Strauss III

    Burton Strauss III Well-Known Member

    Mint rolls are packaged differently and are not supposed to have W s... those are supposed to be mixed only into the 1 ton bags
     
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