Log in or Sign up
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
When does "traces of tooling" become "tooled within an inch of it's life"
>
Reply to Thread
Message:
<p>[QUOTE="sand, post: 8062780, member: 118540"]The numismatic definition of the word "smoothing" is interesting.</p><p>I have only been collecting ancients for 3 years. Therefore, I don't know where to look, for an "official" definition of the word "smoothing".</p><p>I searched for an "official" definition of the word "smoothing", but I didn't find one.</p><p><br /></p><p>I tried the American Numismatic Society : <a href="http://numismatics.org/" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://numismatics.org/" rel="nofollow">http://numismatics.org/</a></p><p>I tried the Royal Numismatic Society : <a href="https://numismatics.org.uk/" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://numismatics.org.uk/" rel="nofollow">https://numismatics.org.uk/</a></p><p>I tried the American Numismatic Association : <a href="https://www.money.org/" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.money.org/" rel="nofollow">https://www.money.org/</a></p><p>I tried the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild : <a href="https://accguild.org/" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://accguild.org/" rel="nofollow">https://accguild.org/</a></p><p>I tried the NGC glossary : <a href="https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/2202/Glossary/" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/2202/Glossary/" rel="nofollow">https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/2202/Glossary/</a></p><p><br /></p><p>I looked through my books about ancient coins. In the books, the only discussion of smoothing, that I found, was in Sayles "Ancient Coin Collecting" Volume 1 Second Edition 2003, on pages 88 and 89, in which he says the following :</p><p>"SMOOTHING: The mechanical removal of surface imperfections in the field of a coin is called smoothing. This may lead to a more visually attractive specimen, but most collectors frown upon any alteration to the actual surface metal of a coin..."</p><p><br /></p><p>On Forum Ancient Coins, I found the following definition of smoothing :</p><p><a href="https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=smoothing" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=smoothing" rel="nofollow">https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=smoothing</a></p><p>"Smoothing is the grinding down of the metal surface of the fields on a coin (usually bronze) to "smooth" pitted, rough areas. Smoothing can also be performed on areas other than the fields, however, if the work modifies the original form of the reliefs or attempts to recreate worn or corroded details, then it must be described as tooling, not smoothing. Smoothing is a form of tooling but is less destructive.</p><p>...</p><p>Smoothing is sometimes incorrectly used to describe a form of cleaning where a rough green patina or copper oxide encrustations (often red lumps) are smoothed down to field or detail level. This "smoothing" is better described as cleaning and can enhance the appearance and value of a coin if it is limited to removing encrustations and protrusions. To prevent confusion, the term smoothing should not be used to describe this type of cleaning. The term smoothing should be used only when the metal of the coin has been altered.</p><p>...</p><p>Tooling and smoothing are damage and reduce rather than enhance value."</p><p><br /></p><p>The above 2 definitions of smoothing, from Sayles and Forum Ancient Coins, lead me to tentatively believe, that smoothing is the altering of the metal of a coin, and that altering the patina of a coin is not smoothing, but with some exceptions.</p><p><br /></p><p>One interesting question is, what is the "metal" of a coin? If I remember correctly, the patina of a bronze coin, is a chemical compound, composed of some of the original metal of the coin, combined with oxygen and/or chlorine and/or sulfur, etc. In other words, the patina of a coin, is copper oxide, or copper chloride, or copper sulfide, etc. Which makes me wonder. Where does the "metal" of the coin end, and where does the "not the metal" begin? Perhaps a good definition of the "metal" of a bronze coin, is that the "metal" is shiny and red/yellow, and the "patina" is green or black or some other color.</p><p><br /></p><p>If someone uses a scalpel to scrape off a few green protrusions on a bronze coin, and if he/she doesn't touch or affect the shiny red/yellow metal of the coin, then that seems like cleaning, not smoothing. If someone uses a scalpel or dremel to smooth out the green patina on a bronze coin, but doesn't touch or affect any of the shiny red/yellow metal, is that smoothing, or is that cleaning?</p><p><br /></p><p>I think I read somewhere, that when a bronze coin is smoothed, the coin must be repatinated (artificially patinated), because smoothing involves altering the shiny metal of the coin.</p><p><br /></p><p>However, if the green patina on a bronze coin is very thick, then someone could practically carve an entire design out of the green patina, without touching the shiny red/yellow metal of the coin. That seems like tooling.</p><p><br /></p><p>So, here is my tentative definition of smoothing and tooling, for a bronze coin :</p><p>If you alter the shiny red/yellow metal of a bronze coin, then this is definitely smoothing or tooling.</p><p>If you only touch the green/black patina of a bronze coin, and don't alter the shiny red/yellow metal of the bronze coin, then this seems like cleaning, not smoothing or tooling, unless you do one of the following :</p><p>1. Carve a design out of the patina. This seems like tooling.</p><p>2. Make the existing design more well defined and clearer with sharper edges, by removing patina from the fields next to the devices, without removing a similar amount of patina from the devices. This seems like tooling.</p><p><br /></p><p>If one of the more experienced CoinTalkers can point me, to a more "official" definition of smoothing, in an internet link, or in a book, then I would like to see it.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="sand, post: 8062780, member: 118540"]The numismatic definition of the word "smoothing" is interesting. I have only been collecting ancients for 3 years. Therefore, I don't know where to look, for an "official" definition of the word "smoothing". I searched for an "official" definition of the word "smoothing", but I didn't find one. I tried the American Numismatic Society : [URL]http://numismatics.org/[/URL] I tried the Royal Numismatic Society : [URL]https://numismatics.org.uk/[/URL] I tried the American Numismatic Association : [URL]https://www.money.org/[/URL] I tried the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild : [URL]https://accguild.org/[/URL] I tried the NGC glossary : [URL]https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/2202/Glossary/[/URL] I looked through my books about ancient coins. In the books, the only discussion of smoothing, that I found, was in Sayles "Ancient Coin Collecting" Volume 1 Second Edition 2003, on pages 88 and 89, in which he says the following : "SMOOTHING: The mechanical removal of surface imperfections in the field of a coin is called smoothing. This may lead to a more visually attractive specimen, but most collectors frown upon any alteration to the actual surface metal of a coin..." On Forum Ancient Coins, I found the following definition of smoothing : [URL]https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=smoothing[/URL] "Smoothing is the grinding down of the metal surface of the fields on a coin (usually bronze) to "smooth" pitted, rough areas. Smoothing can also be performed on areas other than the fields, however, if the work modifies the original form of the reliefs or attempts to recreate worn or corroded details, then it must be described as tooling, not smoothing. Smoothing is a form of tooling but is less destructive. ... Smoothing is sometimes incorrectly used to describe a form of cleaning where a rough green patina or copper oxide encrustations (often red lumps) are smoothed down to field or detail level. This "smoothing" is better described as cleaning and can enhance the appearance and value of a coin if it is limited to removing encrustations and protrusions. To prevent confusion, the term smoothing should not be used to describe this type of cleaning. The term smoothing should be used only when the metal of the coin has been altered. ... Tooling and smoothing are damage and reduce rather than enhance value." The above 2 definitions of smoothing, from Sayles and Forum Ancient Coins, lead me to tentatively believe, that smoothing is the altering of the metal of a coin, and that altering the patina of a coin is not smoothing, but with some exceptions. One interesting question is, what is the "metal" of a coin? If I remember correctly, the patina of a bronze coin, is a chemical compound, composed of some of the original metal of the coin, combined with oxygen and/or chlorine and/or sulfur, etc. In other words, the patina of a coin, is copper oxide, or copper chloride, or copper sulfide, etc. Which makes me wonder. Where does the "metal" of the coin end, and where does the "not the metal" begin? Perhaps a good definition of the "metal" of a bronze coin, is that the "metal" is shiny and red/yellow, and the "patina" is green or black or some other color. If someone uses a scalpel to scrape off a few green protrusions on a bronze coin, and if he/she doesn't touch or affect the shiny red/yellow metal of the coin, then that seems like cleaning, not smoothing. If someone uses a scalpel or dremel to smooth out the green patina on a bronze coin, but doesn't touch or affect any of the shiny red/yellow metal, is that smoothing, or is that cleaning? I think I read somewhere, that when a bronze coin is smoothed, the coin must be repatinated (artificially patinated), because smoothing involves altering the shiny metal of the coin. However, if the green patina on a bronze coin is very thick, then someone could practically carve an entire design out of the green patina, without touching the shiny red/yellow metal of the coin. That seems like tooling. So, here is my tentative definition of smoothing and tooling, for a bronze coin : If you alter the shiny red/yellow metal of a bronze coin, then this is definitely smoothing or tooling. If you only touch the green/black patina of a bronze coin, and don't alter the shiny red/yellow metal of the bronze coin, then this seems like cleaning, not smoothing or tooling, unless you do one of the following : 1. Carve a design out of the patina. This seems like tooling. 2. Make the existing design more well defined and clearer with sharper edges, by removing patina from the fields next to the devices, without removing a similar amount of patina from the devices. This seems like tooling. If one of the more experienced CoinTalkers can point me, to a more "official" definition of smoothing, in an internet link, or in a book, then I would like to see it.[/QUOTE]
Your name or email address:
Do you already have an account?
No, create an account now.
Yes, my password is:
Forgot your password?
Stay logged in
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
When does "traces of tooling" become "tooled within an inch of it's life"
>
Home
Home
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Activity
Recent Posts
Forums
Forums
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Posts
Competitions
Competitions
Quick Links
Competition Index
Rules, Terms & Conditions
Gallery
Gallery
Quick Links
Search Media
New Media
Showcase
Showcase
Quick Links
Search Items
Most Active Members
New Items
Directory
Directory
Quick Links
Directory Home
New Listings
Members
Members
Quick Links
Notable Members
Current Visitors
Recent Activity
New Profile Posts
Sponsors
Menu
Search
Search titles only
Posted by Member:
Separate names with a comma.
Newer Than:
Search this thread only
Search this forum only
Display results as threads
Useful Searches
Recent Posts
More...
