When did PCGS start Designating Prooflike?

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by physics-fan3.14, Nov 30, 2018.

  1. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    I was browsing upcoming Heritage auction lots, and I was quite surprised to see quite a few world coins in PCGS holders labelled as Prooflike. This is definitely a new thing, but does anyone know when it started? I didn't hear anything about this.

    Granted, PCGS grading of world coins absolutely sucks, but I am curious why they started doing this, and if they will follow suit with US coins. Currently, NGC and ANACS will award a PL to any worthy coin - but PCGS has been stubbornly reticent to use the designation.

    Here's a link to an auction showing what I'm talking about - there are quite a few more on Heritage and Ebay: https://coins.ha.com/itm/german-sta...116253.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
     
    Jaelus likes this.
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  3. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    According to the latest edition of "The World According to @GDJMSP", PCGS must do it for the same reason they do everything - to make certain someones happy. I tend to believe this, and disbelieve that PCGS is the locus of all virtue.
     
    Numinaut and halfcent1793 like this.
  4. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    I'm sure they are doing it to make someone happy. That's the whole point of business. Many collectors have been clamoring for them to designate PL's for years.

    The current question, however, is when did they start and to please whom?
     
    Coin-Dude likes this.
  5. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    As if they'll ever say. That's my problem with PCGS - too closed a club. Too little regard for collectors. 100% chance that they changed it not for collectors, but more likely a SINGLE favored dealer. PCGS, all private backroom dealing for the favored few, all the time.
     
  6. Jaelus

    Jaelus Hungarian Collector Supporter

    I noticed that as well when I bought a small lot of world PL in PCGS slabs about 5 months ago. All crossed to NGC as PL one grade lower.
     
  7. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    Did the PL all seem strong on them, or were there any that were borderline? Trying to get a feel for how conservative the PL is, or what the standard may be.
     
  8. ddddd

    ddddd Member

  9. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    ddddd likes this.
  10. thomas mozzillo

    thomas mozzillo Active Member

    That must have hurt.
     
  11. Jaelus

    Jaelus Hungarian Collector Supporter

    They were all extremely strong PL with cameo. NGC is very stingy, and yet all of the PCGS coins crossed with the designation.
     
  12. Jaelus

    Jaelus Hungarian Collector Supporter

    Not at all. I agree with the new NGC grades. When I buy PCGS world coins, I assume they are overgraded by at least a point.
     
  13. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    That is really good to know, as I'm looking at a couple currently.
     
  14. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    People have been trying to get them to do it for all coins for a long time. They selectively do it with world issues and I believe they started doing it for Canadian coins like 2 years ago which it seems to have grown since then.

    They opened it up for the Shipwreck gold coins as well and have been opening up the PL to more and more since the Canadian announcement. Hopefully the new regime will continue to expand it or just go ahead and expand it to everything.

    It's more than just that, but even in those instances it's no different than NGC does. You like to blame PCGS for doing the same things that NGC does. The old guard you disliked is all gone anyway, it's a new regime and new day there.
     
  15. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    If only. I'll remain vigilant and dubious pending more evidence. The staff are still jerks. I WILL give them props for one thing - at the most recent Baltimore Whitman show, PCGS did remain open and present after NGC was gone.

    And yes, in case you and @Lehigh96 missed it, I am SO opposed to dealing with mailing that I EVEN only submit coins to NGC in person at shows. The very idea of dealing with mailing makes me shudder.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
  16. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Well-Known Member

    The term "proof-like" existed long before PCGS. The Canadian Mint used this designation to describe early strikes that received special handling, before they struck true proof coins. The die surfaces held a mirror-like polish on the early strikes.
     
  17. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    I would do it in person too if I was going to be somewhere they were if for no other reason than to save the cost of shipping. NGC return shipping does drive me crazy though being registered, for whatever reason it's always a week minimum for that to get back to me. CAC registered is always a week or so too, there's always one post office it just sits at for a few days. I much prefer the priority/express mail method of PCGS where knock on wood it's two days almost every time.
     
  18. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    The terms and special designations of PL and DMPL have existed since long before the TPGs even existed. And the TPGs have assigned them to certain select coins since they opened their doors for business. For the most part these designations were usually only assigned to Morgans and some very nice gold issues, with Morgans being far more common than the gold of course. And there were a few other coins mixed in here and there but they were few and far between.

    Over time, and no I can't pin down the exact years but it was in the early part of this century, the designations started appearing on other coins, including world coins.

    The thing about this designation is that it is the only special designation that has always been based on physical measurements for a coin to be deemed worthy of the designation. Other than that there was no, and never has been, any limitation on the designation such as it can only be assigned to this series or that series, or only US coins. The only exception to this was that coins specifically minted to have the PL DMPL characteristics did not qualify for the designation.

    All of that said, has PCGS been reticent to give out the designation ? Of course they have, that's is and always has been a large part of their marketing. They want everybody to think that they are tougher than the other guys when it comes to grading and special designations. It's always been a company policy thing, just like it was with the 70 grade for many years. They rarely if ever gave them for years, and then suddenly they changed and gave them out left and right.

    But they have always given out a few 70s or a few PLs or a few DMPLs here and there. And they pretty much had to just to convince the market that sure they'd give them out, but only when the coins were worthy. That's one of the things that supposedly made PCGS special. As I said, marketing, and quite deliberate marketing.

    To counter this, NGC has always given out the grades and special designations to any coin that was worthy of them. Their marketing was OK if PCGS wants to be that way then we'll give them out when the coins are actually worthy instead of pretending to be overly tough. And make no mistake, that's all PCGS was doing - pretending. And the marketing worked for both companies.

    As to your question about whom were they trying to please when they suddenly decided to give the designations ? Pretty much everybody, not just some individual. It's no different than any of the TPGs have made to their policies over the years, and all of them have made many changes. NGC flat out refused to even accept any coin minted after 1964 until 2001 - then they changed. All the TPGs refused to slab problem coins of any kind until 2007, then they changed. PCGS refused to give 70 grades more than once in a great while until 2004, then they changed and started giving them out left and right. And that's just a few of the policy changes, major policy changes, there have been more. But none of them were made by any TPG to please any individual, they were made to please everybody.

    All of the TPGs do this, make these changes, in order to compete with the other guy. Those are their very business models - do whatever we have to do to get the business. Hand out special designations, fine we can do that. Loosen grading, fine we can do that. Slab problem coins, fine we can do that. It is a pattern that has existed since they opened their doors for business.

    Much of this stuff people know from memory because they lived through it. And for those that don't remember it, it is by examining the patterns that you can kind of pin down dates as to when any or all of these changes occurred. And you can examine the patterns by searching auction records, particularly old ones, and pop reports, again old ones. But doing that takes a lot of work, a lot of it I've already done, which coupled with living through it is why I know the dates that I do know. But this one, I can't pin that one down for you. But you can find out yourself, if ya do the research.
     
  19. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    Wow, Doug, that's most words I've ever seen you use to say absolutely nothing.
     
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  20. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    If you really believe that...........
     
  21. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    I got a Kennedy half slabbed as PL in 2015, the first one I submitted for that designation.
     
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