When crossovering...do you break out or send as it is?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Ed Zak, Jan 18, 2005.

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  1. mainer

    mainer New Member

    coin grading companies

    Hello, and thank you for such a quick response. I do appreciate it. The three main series that I collected, and wish to continue to collect, are Washington Quarters, Franklin Halves and Jefferson Nickels. I did a quick tally on e-bay this morning and here are the results:

    Washington Quarters:

    Listed - 2968 Coins
    PCGS - 338
    ANACS - 37
    NGC - 305
    ICG - 29

    Franklin Halves

    Listed - 3068 Coins
    PCGS - 406
    ANACS - 64
    NGC - 221
    ICG - 9

    Jefferson Nickels

    Listed - 4701
    PCGS - 466
    ANACS - 58
    NGC - 129
    ICG - 20

    Is this just a mindset on e-bay or is this feeling everywhere? I know you said that PCGS may not always be the dominant grading service in the marketplace but it does seem, by looking at those numbers, that they may well command more attention and better prices than the other grading services. By looking at the various grading web sites I would very much like to send my coins to have them graded by ANACS but I am wondering if I am doing myself wrong in the long term by trying to save some money in the short term? From articles that I have read ANACS is in fact very well respected but it does not appear that there are alot of their coins around. I have also checked out a few auctions on Teletrade and it does appear that there is somewhat better respect for ANACS although if you look at the prices realized from their auctions that, even there, PCGS gets the better price. I probably have 150 coins that I wish to have graded and when I do the math the cost of doing business with PCGS is very high compared to ANACS. If you do not mind me being so direct, what is you gut opinion and, if you had those many coins to have graded and may wish to consider selling them one day, which grading service would you use for this purpose? Again, that you for you time and opinions!
     
    mainer, Mar 23, 2005
    #21 + Quote Reply
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  3. Ed Zak

    Ed Zak New Member

    Welcome to the forum...

    I am right with you on this discussion. If I can buy a coin (see it, hold it) in one of the lower tiered grading services for pennies on the dollar compared to PCGS, I'll buy it. Even it I break it out and I send it into PCGS and they come back and grade it 2-3 points less, many times I still am ahead if I had to sell it after submission costs and all.

    PCGS gets more for their slabbed coins than NGC who gets more than ANACS who gets more than ICG. It is just the way of the world. Look at Heritage completed auctions for prices realized and the market has spoken...and speaking:

    http://www.heritagecoins.com/

    As stated, I look for the other services for deals compared to the high prices PCGS gets. If I am selling, I have sold, for example, a PCGS MS66RD 1935-S Lincoln Cent for almost double what the same coin, in the same grade, graded by NGC. Is the coin any better? Probably not, but the market perception is!

    Maybe the market may change and NGC will command premium prices...who knows? But that will be a prayer and I can't wait for a prayer to happened.

    Now, I like ICG because their slab with Intercept Shield protection keeps my old Lincoln Reds...well, RED! (all things being equal). Their grading for circulated coins and those coins less than MS67 is very conservative (in my opinion)...BUT...I also know that their coins don't get prices realized compared to the others. Still, for protection, storage, display and grading...they do me service.

    They also seem to do all the right things and even Grey Sheets always list them at the top WITH the likes of PCGS and NGC. Look for yourself...

    http://www.greysheet.com/cdn/cdnccmi.asp


    I have no plans to sell my coins anytime soon so maybe, just maybe...their prices realized in the future may coincide with PCGS and NGC. If that day happens, I will be VERY happy.

    But isn't that a prayer? Oh well...
     
    Ed Zak, Mar 23, 2005
    #22 + Quote Reply
  4. rbm86

    rbm86 Coin Hoarder

    If they are in non-Big 4 slabs, you might be better off submitting them raw. It eliminates any possibility of a bias.

    The only slabs I would ever try to cross are top-tier slabs, because if they do not cross, they are still likely worth more in the current slab than what they would be worth in a slab (at a lower grade) you are trying to cross into. Here's an example:

    Say you have a 1971-S NGC PR69 UCAM Lincoln Cent. You want to cross to PCGS (PR69 DCAM). It does not cross. If you had cracked out the coin, it likely would grade PR68 DCAM at PCGS, which is worth less than the NGC PR69 UCAM.

    Now, if you are trying to cross a PCI PR 69 DCAM and you crack it out and get a PCGS PR68 DCAM, you are better off. If you get PCGS PR66 CAM, you likely break even. If you get lower than that, they you are way off on your assessment as to whether the coin will cross.

    Good Luck!! :D
     
    rbm86, Mar 23, 2005
    #23 + Quote Reply
  5. Ed Zak

    Ed Zak New Member

    I see...it is the bias that I am concerned about.

    Makes sense, leave in the slab and state a minimum grade for the top graders. Break out and submit raw for the lower-tiered companies. After all, I always thought that when a PCGS grader were to get a PCI coin that is PR69DCAM with no spots (carbon) and all, they still would knock off a point or two because they look down at these services as "lower-class".

    Just how bad this initial bias is why I started this thread...
     
    Ed Zak, Mar 23, 2005
    #24 + Quote Reply
  6. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    It's never been determined that there is any bias at all to begin with. There is only assumption - and I think we all know what happens when we assume.
     
    GDJMSP, Mar 23, 2005
    #25 + Quote Reply
  7. mickdale

    mickdale New Member

    youre all lucky to have so many grading/slabbing services. in the uk we havent got any (yet)
    how much do the best american slabbers charge per coin?
    dealers grading over here varies incredibly
    mickdale
     
    mickdale, Mar 23, 2005
    #26 + Quote Reply
  8. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I thought I was pretty clear - yes, coins in PCGS slabs sell for more as a general rule. But don't confuse that issue with how many coins are listed on ebay in various slabs - for that does not tell you anything really. For example - if you were to check how many world coins are available on ebay in NGC slabs vs PCGS - NGC will outnumber PCGS by 4 to 1, consistently.

    And there is another even bigger issue at hand here that very few collectors even recognize. That is that many advanced collectors don't and won't even consider using ebay as a source to purchase their coins. The same thing goes for Heritage and TeleTrade - or any on-line auction. They simply insist on buying their coins in person. And for collectors like them, the slab is meaningless and has no bearing on whether they buy the coin or not.

    So ya see - it depends on how & where you sell your coins as to how much impact, if any, a slab can have on the sale.



    Again - the number of coins you find available for sale in any given slab really tells you nothing. For instance, ANACS has been around far longer than either PCGS or NGC. And NGC has slabbed more coins than PCGS has and their lead is growing daily. A large number of coins in any given slab can indicate a couple things though - it could indicate that a given company slabs more coins. It could also indicate that people are unhappy with the coins found in a given company's slab therefore they are selling them. Just as the lack of coins being available for sale in any given slab might indicate that people are happy with the coins and simply will not sell them. So as you can see - you could read that situation several different ways.

    In my opinion, only you can decide what will be best for you in this case. And you should base your decision on what is most important to you. Is it the ability to sell the coins easily in the future - having an accurate & consistent grade - or having the most conservative grade ?

    For the 3 coin series you mentioned, again this my opinion, PCGS only has an advantage when it comes to selling the coin. NGC is far and away more conservative when grading those 3 series and they are also more consistent and accurate than PCGS is. And I think they, NGC, are more consistent and accurate than ANACS when it comes to those 3 series as well. But I have little doubt that with those 3 series ANACS more conservative than either PCGS or NGC - too conservative at times in my opinion.

    Hope this helps.
     
    GDJMSP, Mar 23, 2005
    #27 + Quote Reply
  9. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    Howdy mickdale - Welcome to the Forum !!

    Fees can range from as low as $8 per coin to $40. But they can go much higher too if the coins are high priced. For with higher priced coins the fee is dependent on the value.

    Dealer grading here in the US is just as varied as it there. Of course that's why the grading companies came into being here. I have little doubt the same will eventually happen in Europe.
     
    GDJMSP, Mar 23, 2005
    #28 + Quote Reply
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