That is the guise.. Commerce happens like this. A seller has an item to sell, a buyer has money to offer. The buyer offers a certain amount for said item. The seller either agrees or disagrees. The item is either sold or not sold. These people with gold are walking into the buyers establishment and asking how much money they will pay. They make an offer to PM holder. They then decide wether to sell or not. They don't have a gun to their head while making this decision. The old saying of a Fool and their money are soon departed, plays perfectly into this situation. The person holding the PM is the one with the "Real" money. They are just trading it for cotton based currency.
A lot of people go into the pm dealer not knowing what the price of the pm is to begin with. Some are so desperate that they accept whatever is offered. If you have an honest pm dealer you walk away with the right amount of money. If you have a dishonest one, you'll get a lot less than what you should. Sometimes the fool has no choice.
That's called life. Life is not always fair. It is not the governments responsibility to make life fair. I'm in no way sticking up for the unscrupulous pm buyers out there. I'm just stating that responsibility falls on BOTH parties.
I agree with you to a point. But when the government sometimes, not all the time, sees that something is one sided or the percentage is very high, then they'll step in. I think that's what happened here with the pm. Is it good or bad? Only time will tell and if you live in that state you can try to vote them out and change the law.
What should be done about the masses who jumped on the band wagon and bought silver and gold at it's peak in 2011? Should the government reimburse them? It's the exact same thing just opposite roles.
Maybe the government should regulate the pm market and control it's prices. Oh wait, the big banks are doing that for them as we speak..
I'm not saying the government should reimburse anybody. The government comes in when there is an imbalance generally with the consumer being taking advantage of. If you were buying bullion at its height, I don't think you were being taken advantage of because you would know what the price is and what the risks are. We're talking about the pm dealers that are buying from everyday people, which 90% don't have any idea what the price of gold or silver is. Should the government reimburse people for losing money? I think we did already with the bank bailout.
"Should the government reimburse people for losing money? I think we did already with the bank bailout." No, you have it backwards. In Cyprus, the first significant bail-in, some of the DEPOSITORS' funds were confiscated and given to the banks so they could meet their capital requirements during a banking crisis. This was deemed the lesser evil. They may have received bonds or some kind of financial instrument in exchange, but those were worthless the day they were issued. See Wikipedia for details: The Dodd-Frank Act Title II now legislates bailout procedures for the United States.....Title II is aimed at protecting the financial stability of the American economy, forcing shareholders and creditors to bear the losses of the failed financial company.....
I think we did already did and will do over and over. It's only the taxpayer's money and the government we put in.
Thank you. I agree it was turning very political. I can get a little cynical when I'm ranting. But the gist of the OP's question has been touched upon. We just need to all be aware of potential legislation our home states may be trying to push through.
I am ashamed of what my home state (MN) has done, but it gets even worse. My local coin club has hosted an annual show once a year for 10 years now, in the fall. Last September, the city (PD) called my friend (local dealer) in charge of the bourse, the DAY BEFORE the show.....and informed him dealers would NOT be allowed to buy any coins from the public! As you can imagine, most of the dealers dropped out. This fall we are not holding a show in town, and this is a city with a 90,000 population. So they are losing income to hotels, restaurants, and tourism.
I believe if your "dealers" want to participate in an authorized coin show, they could have been in the Roseville show today, or the Bloomington show tomorrow. As far as I've heard, only "dealers" who have tried to "scalp" the public have been affected by the legislation. I think you'll find that only less than honest individuals have been charged, and removed from the "dealer pool". One can view Minnesota Craigslist ads on any given day, and see numerous ads for coin/currency exchange. I believe the ads are being audited by policing agencies to eliminate the "Wild West" activities that existed before implementing the law. If you investigate, I think you'll generally find that efforts for curtailment are only initiated after a complaint. I constantly deal with private individuals looking to buy or sell coins Individuals have generally expressed an elevated level of safety. With the current system the complaints of less than honorable transactions are investigated. and covered by surety action, if found unlawful. JMHO
I can understand regulating the purchase of pms from the public to an extent. Say make it illegal to pay less than a set percentage of spot. On a government minted coin, the percentage of pm in the coin is widely known so I don't understand banning their purchase. Nor do I understand banning their sale. I suspect that just as many people are ripped off by jewlers as coin dealers if not more.
Imrich....... These are legitimate dealers. And some are down in Roseville today. Our show has been in Duluth, and most of the dealers have been from the cities area. This crap the city pulled was just not right, IMHO. And the whole deal the state has put into practice is just shutting down business.
Plenty of out of state dealers who are very much legitimate don't want to deal with the absurdity of the paperwork involved and so just refuse to sell to mn buyers. It's a four hour drive for me to Bloomington or Roseville. One way. I appreciate the smaller shows that are more local to my area and the opportunity I and many others would be starved for otherwise. They are small time, but legitimate nonetheless. I went to a biannual local show a week ago that prior to this legislation had a good dealer selection. There were 4 dealers there. It is killing our hobby in this state by isolating us. It's reminiscent of the first efforts to criminalize drugs: First they were readily available in various tonics sold door to door and everyday consumables (coka cola). Then legislation passed requiring a permit to sell them which was available for a steep fee and immaculate record keeping. If I'm not mistaken I believe soon they were required to show what they intended to sell in order to get the permit, necessitating the breaking of the law against possession in order to obtain the permit required in order to legally have it. Today they are heavily regulated by the state including detailed records. I see a correlation. An unregulated commodity representing wealth that is untraceable until certain aspects are gradually criminalized until a new "pm cartel" is formed when underground trading becomes necessary for privacy concerns. How much "protection" will we have then?
A state law takes effect Thursday that will provide consumer protections for precious metals buyers and, effective next July, give the Minnesota Department of Commerce oversight over dealers and their employees. The new bullion coin law will require criminal background checks and will ban from the industry anyone convicted of a financial crime in the preceding 10 years. Dealers also must post a surety bond that can be tapped by consumers in the event of misbehavior. Those who violate the law could be charged with a misdemeanor and pay a fine of $10,000 per incident. A Star Tribune investigation in 2011 found that the unregulated industry was rife with addicts, ex-convicts and con artists who routinely misled or defrauded customers, frequently seniors looking for a safe investment. While the state has laws regulating pawn brokers and other “secondhand” precious-metal buyers, Minnesota appears to be the first state to regulate retail coin dealers and telemarketers like financial advisers. Some dealers said the new law was needed to clean up Minnesota’s reputation as a hotbed of unscrupulous coin dealers. But others said the law goes too far and will likely drive some smaller companies out of state or out of business. “We had some rotten apples in the business,” said Jim Cook, owner of Investment Rarities Inc. in Bloomington, who is considered the grandfather of coin telemarketing in Minnesota. “The big thing is keeping the felons out of the business.” Cook cited the activities of former business rival David Marion, who’s scheduled to be sentenced Aug. 29 in federal court for securities fraud, mail fraud and money laundering related to his now-defunct company, International Rarities Corp. At its peak in 2009, the company did $24 million in annual business. “I’m glad that he finally got his comeuppance. He was the main cancer,” Cook said. “Then the personnel that learned the business there would go out on their own and fleece some more people. It’s horrible.” It’s impossible to say just how many ex-cons permeate the industry because there have been no licensing requirements. The newspaper investigation found six dozen Twin Cities salesmen with serious criminal records who had worked for area coin companies since the 1990s. The new law wouldn’t have barred Marion from the industry, as he had no criminal record when he started. But it would have barred some of his former employees who’ve been convicted of fraud, forgery, bank robbery, burglary, or theft. Gary Adkins, an Edina coin dealer and a past president of the Professional Numismatists Guild, said some regulation was warranted. But he said the new bullion law was “ramrodded through”
Coin dealers in Minnesota and across the nation who thus far may have ignored the issue of whether to register with the Minnesota Department of Commerce cannot ignore the issue any longer. If you are a non-Minnesota dealer with any kind of activity with customers in that state, you will be easy to catch and prosecute for failure to register – even if you never set foot in that state. defines that term: “Bullion Coin … means any coin containing one percent by weight of silver, gold, platinum or other precious metal.” For all practical purposes, this means that any coin containing even the slightest amount of gold, silver, platinum or palladium falls within the definition of “bullion coin From the news
