What's the deal with Minnesota? This makes three times already that I have seen this online. "NOTE Due to the State of Minnesota's Bullion Coin Dealer Law that is in effect, we are not accepting orders from Minnesota residents. Items purchased by residents of Minnesota will be cancelled and any payments we receive will be refunded. Sorry for any inconvenience this may cause."
It's the beginning of the end for people who like to deal in precious metals. They make it so unreasonable to me a precious metals dealer, even part time, that it's not worth the trouble. I've read a little on the law and basically you have to be licensed and bonded and have a background check done to sell or buy precious metals to residents of Minnesota. They should feel grateful for being "Protected" by the government of Minnesota. There are I believe a few other states starting to go down this road. We need to do our part as citizens and stand up to these tyrant's. These laws are passed under the guise of the safety of the public. All it is doing is restricting who can do commerce in a free market. As Franklin said, "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety".
I wonder how many other states require licensing and bond surety? I bet this is more in response to the cash for gold buyers. They tried to soften the blow on coin dealers by throwing in the trade show exemption.
I would find Minnesota's law far less objectionable if they didn't attempt to apply it to dealers outside Minnesota, and if they hadn't defined "bullion dealer" so broadly as to include basically any coin dealer.
I understand the whole "We need to protect consumers from the Cash for Gold places" mentality. But honestly it's not the government job to do that. If I had a bunch of jewelry or coins and had no idea what they were worth, the last thing I would do is blindly go walking into some place with a giant yellow sign that says "Top prices paid for gold and silver". I'd do a little homework and get a better idea as to what I had. If your too busy or lazy to do a little research, then you have no right to complain about how much you were given for your gold. As Forrest Gump said "Stupid is as Stupid does".
It's because of swindlers in b&m shops paying a fraction of melt to naive, usually elderly and frequently recently widowed people in mourning. Those same swindlers then turn around and sell that bullion for several times spot to other naive elderly widows looking to invest the retirement fund. Keep in mind this legislation was written at the bursting of the silver bubble as a direct response to both unscrupulous b&m's (another high profile case recently was a St Paul based dealer defrauding interstate customers with fakes he traveled to China to buy), as well as traveling buyers moving from motel to motel. I hate the law. That is why I'm so vocal every time certain "pawn" guys come on here bragging about ripping people off. This is where that crap leads us.
See my thread (and many comments) about a similar law in Ohio taking effect on July 1. The Ohio law only targets sellers, as best I can figure out, but it will apply to CraigsList and even flea market sellers. Penalties = big fines and prison time...
I'm a firm believer that state or federal legislation cannot save people from themselves! Plus the legislation typically "band-aids" the symptoms, it doesn't fix the problem. While I hate seeing people taken advantage of, I also feel that it's partly their fault.
The state of Arkansas did the same thing several years ago with the payday and title loan people. It was much easier to run them out of the state that it was to educate the ones that fell into the trap.
I think you might be surprised at exactly how many people would do what you described as what you "wouldn't" do. These laws are formulated based upon constituent complaints by folks who simply want to make the constituents feel like they, the elected representatives, are doing something and it would be a good law if it did not reach beyond state boundaries. But then, I can understand that for folks that come in to the state which unfortunately, affects mail order and internet sales.
There are dealers that set up at shows that won't sell to someone from Minnesota if they're paying by a check with a Minnesota address or otherwise identify themselves as being from Minnesota. The dealer may never cross the threshold of sales that would subject them to the more onerous parts of the laws, but they have no other way of putting pressure on Minnesota legislators than having their constituents pound sand.
I think this is in response to many complaints of the buyers and sellers of precious metals, full time and part time, taking advantage of people selling their items. I don't live in Minnesota, but mostly any business has to have some sort of license and depending on your type of business, bonding and all of that is normal. With the precious metal explosion and the way the economy is, I'd say 90% of the people don't research anything. They do look at that big sign that says "we pay high prices." As you know, many of the pm dealers do take advantage of the public.
I understand where your coming from. But at what point do we stop holding these people's hands? I know nothing about the art world. If I inherited some paintings, I would not be going to the local flea market and ask the guy selling artwork how much it's worth. I'd take it into a gallery or museum that has been around a while and has a reputation. It's the same for people wanting to sell their gold. If they want to throw it into an envelope and wait for a check to show up, or drive around and see a yellow sign on a building next to a 7-11 and walk in and hand over their gold. That is their choice. It's because of people like that that these cash for gold places exist. I know some of them are fair on what they pay. Other's are the hairy white stuff growing on dog excrement. So shop it around before saying "OK". Due your own due diligence. Why make it harder and far more expensive for an honest guy who want's to get started in the coin and precious metals business? All they are accomplishing is the death of commerce in that particular market place. If they want to truly make a difference, then set a revenue threshold. If you are buying and selling more than $1,000,000.00 (just an example) on an annual basis, then you are required to meet certain obligations to maintain your business. This would prevent some of the Tulving's and NW Territorial Mint's from popping up and running the scams they run. If a guy is standing on a corner holding a sign that says "I buy cars" and you stop and ask how much he would give you for your 2003 Toyota Camry and he replies "$500.00" and you accept that. Then your more in the wrong than the guy holding the sign. That's exactly what this is. If people educated themselves instead of whining, these guy's would disappear very quickly..
For jtlee321, you are 99% right. Here's what you left out. The bigger issue is that the governments of this country wish to monitor, regulate, and record every aspect of our financial lives, under the guise of thwarting terrorism. Plus, they hate cash; cash can be a leak in the revenue stream, and USE of cash generates suspicion of tax evasion (including sales tax). Closely related is confiscation of assets. Ask Canadians about sales tax.
I believe you'll find that the laws implemented by Minnesota and several other states are a precursor to Federal legislation, curtailing the interstate "bait and switch" antics of numerous organizations who promise something as an international auction consignment listing if precious commodites are delivered out of state, then submitting a denial of listing, and a "low ball" offer for the items received. The statutes especially cover sales on the internet where items are offered through the use of images that portray something other than that delivered upon receipt of buyers funds. These entities violating the state laws, intended to protect state residents from out-state actions, can have their assets immediately confiscated by Federal Marshal actions. There are existing Federal Statutes that allow actions as documented at: http:about.ag/tulving.htm I believe, there are other precedents which may allow immediate confiscation of violators assets, which until these state/federal? laws were implemented, avoided redress for interstate confiscation of assets by duressive actions. Federal Statute Of Limitations may allow an appreciable singular multi-state action against multiple violators who've violated others over an extended time period, believing they're immune to recovery action. JMHO
You and most of us on this forum are an exception to the rule. We understand the collectible market but the average person does not, at least in my opinion. A lot of these new laws are not only fueled by the government trying to help the consumer, which they should, but also by the big pm dealers. They do not particularly like the part time buyers and they do their best to squash the small time buyers and sellers. As we know, most of the small buyers sell it to the large pm dealers or to the public director. This is a big cut into the large dealers profit. By making these laws with licensing, background checks, and bonds on the surface it looks like it's all pro-consumer but it's all pro-large pm dealers.
They did but they set the threshold at $5,000. They also defined dealing in precious metals as anything containing more than 1% PM. Your large legitimate PM dealers are paying the same for the PM whether they are getting it from the little old lady, or from the PM cash for gold middleman that bought it from a little old lady for a song. They don't care where it comes from and they make the same profit either way. They don't care if there are small time buyers or not and they have no reason to try and squash them. They are a supplier for them.
The large legitimate PM dealers are not the problem it's the large PM middleman cash for gold and the rest that under pay and gives a reason and a chance for law's like this to come in and it only will hurt the small buyer and seller and Cash for gold type will squash and put out the other one's
Most people have there heads in the sand. And the way its going we have no rights we gave it all to the government they know whats best for us
