What would cause the look on the rim on this token?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by ldhair, Nov 23, 2022.

  1. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

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  3. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    My guess, looks like the token failed to eject after being struck, and was then struck a 2nd time, although slightly off center.

    2nd guess - a form of mechanical doubling.
     
  4. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    I have always thought it was struck twice but only seeing it on the rim seems odd. I can't see any signs of the second strike on the rest of the coin.
    I'm now thinking MD is the answer. Maybe during ejection before the dies were out of place.
     
  5. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    Possibly a collar clash. I would have to refresh my memory on how dies were made at that time.
     
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  6. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    Incomplete punch of the planchet. Very neat piece Larry.
     
  7. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    See, @ldhair , what did I tell you.

    After 3 days of nonsense, smoke blowing, and bloviating on the NGC forums, somebody got (what I believe to be) the correct answer here in less than 5 hours.

    Yes, I believe this to be an incomplete planchet punch. Read more here: https://www.error-ref.com/incomplete-punch/

    Basically, when they were punching out the planchet, they did not punch it all the way through (in this case, looks like a bit of a bounce on the punch, because it's fairly shallow). When they did punch the planchet out, that incomplete cut was left visible.

    It is still visible on the token (or coins that have this) because the cut is fairly deep, and the striking pressure was not able to eliminate it (the cut you see was on the planchet *before* being struck as a coin or token).
     
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  8. alurid

    alurid Well-Known Member

    very interesting.
     
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  9. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    You are thinking about this from the perspective of very modern technology.

    Think about the technology that was probably used to create these tokens. The US mint itself had only just started to use a closed collar in 1836. It is highly unlikely that a token maker setting up private shop had a steam press or a closed collar. This was almost certainly made using a screw press - individually. No ejection from the dies. No collars to clash. No machine removing the tokens.

    The story about the dude who (most likely) made this is pretty interesting. You can read it here: https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/514022?page=19
     
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  10. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    The 3 has doubling on it. To me it looks like a mint error as there are 2 rims starting at 3 and ending at 6. Beautiful coloring and a sweet piece.
     
  11. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    Does it, though? Be very careful of your terminology, especially with pre-modern coins like this.

    "Doubling" implies something rather specific in modern numismatics (where it often always implies "hub doubling").

    In the language of numismatics of early US coins, you might consider the term "repunched."

    I do appreciate, however, that you are the first person on two forums over 4 days, with dozens of responses, to mention the repunched 3!
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2022
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  12. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    It really stood out as soon as I saw the coin. I used the term “doubling” as the majority of CT members will take notice of it. Thanks for the correct information.
     
  13. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Now this thread was fun. Great coin
     
  14. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    Yeah, a clash wouldn't be impossible if it were a modern tech.
    I also think that @ToughCOINS is right.
     
  15. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I could buy that, except for this -

    upload_2022-11-25_9-5-30.png


    upload_2022-11-25_9-6-17.png



    There are two rows of rim (top pic) and denticles (bottom pic). And an incomplete planchet punch couldn't result in that.

    The only thing that could do that, that I can think of, would be two strikes or mechanical doubling.
     
  16. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator


    Doug, I see only one impression of the denticles into the coin, interrupted by the depression left by the partially sheared edge. The denticles inside (closer to the center than) the depression align very well with the denticles outside the depression, both radially and circumferentially.

    Moreover, if two separate strikes were responsible for the look of the token, the proximity of the numerals to the denticles on the front and of the stars to denticles on the back would have changed where the depression crosses the denticles, which it does not. I see no radial shift of the dies to the planchet whatsoever.

    There's absolutely no question in my mind that this token was struck on an incompletely punched planchet.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2022
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  17. KBBPLL

    KBBPLL Well-Known Member

    I don't even bother going there anymore. So much blather...

    My first thought was also "incomplete planchet punch" but I had no idea what to call it. The perception of a double strike seems to be an optical illusion.
     
  18. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I could easily see where that could be part of the explanation, but it simply can not explain some of the other things we see -

    Image_1738.JPG
     
  19. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator


    The areas you circled show a difference in prominence of the denticles within and outside the depression. That difference exists not because denticles were rendered by a first strike before being muted by a second strike, but because material in the depression is unconstrained, and does not fill recesses in the dies as readily when struck.

    Had the coin shifted slightly after first strike and before a second, some of the most deeply struck details from the first strike would still show at high spots after the second strike. We don't see that anywhere at all in this case.
     
  20. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    That's just it, we do. We can see it the areas I circled, and a little bit on the 3, the &, and the U.

    Mike, please understand, I readily agree that there was an incomplete planchet punch. In the beginning, when I first posted, I never even thought of that. But once you mentioned it, it was obvious. But there was more that happened to that token, and an incomplete punch cannot explain those things. But a double strike, or mechanical doubling, could and I believe does.
     
  21. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    Mechanical doubling should be ruled out, it is too modern.
    lD are there 2 distinct sets of dentils? Or is it an artifact of the photo?
     
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