What premium for sound provenance?

I have read members comments on other threads on the value of good provenance and have seen coins described as being from 'such and such' hoard sell for £50 when other coins of the same type/grade have sold for £10. My question is, what value do you put on provenance.......
I know coins from well known and respected collectors are deemed to have provenance......but what if you knew exactly where, to within a square meter on a map a coin came from? With photos of the finder and hoard? with museum reports detailing each and every coin?
I am curious because I am in the process of buying a disclaimed hoard......800 coins found with pot fragments, photographed in situ, recovered with the aid of archaeologists, reported, recorded and soon to be disclaimed? Coins are mainly of Probus and Tacitus. Is a coin with a value of £15 if sold without provenance, worth £30 with all the above? more...or less?
Just thought I would see what you all thought...... I am interested as to the value experienced collectors put on such things..
Thanks.

 

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I'm interested in the answer as well. Although not the type as you described, I'm in negotiations to buy a coin with very good provenance back to John Quincy Adams, through the Massachusetts Historical Society, Stacks 1971 Auction, Christain Blom, and the Smithsonian Institute. Does this kind of provenance add a little or a lot of value?

 

I would be very much interested in such a provenance, and would be willing to pay a premium for it.

 

I guess there can be two, no, maybe three types of provenance......
maybe 1 and 2 add the same value, but 3 ticks all the boxes and in theory could make a coin worth 3 times the amount.

1. From a well known collector
2. From a verified and known location/hoard
3. Both of the above

I know the proof is in the sale value....it is what someone is willing to pay and there are many other factors such as rarity etc etc etc etc

 

Yes, there are many factors, and I'm sure some collectors don't care about provenance as long as their coin is authentic, which is perfectly fine. But I like knowing the recent history of the coin as well. I keep track of which coins I've purchased from prominent numismatists and auction houses, ie., Harlan Berk, Victor Clark, Zach Beasly, CNG, Roma, etc. Hell, I keep track of where all my coins came from. I also look for coins that have a hoard provenance. That's just my preference, so as I said, the kind of provenance you're speaking of would be very interesting to me.

 

I would be interested in a coin with a certain provenance


However, I would NOT pay that big a premium, especially since once the hoard is broken up, unless you have every coin certified as part of the hoard, it loses all right to the provenance.

In other words, not that we don't trust you, but

You buy a hoard of say 200 coins, and the next thing you see 400 for sale on ebay.

Do you see the problem?

 

Take that with a grain of salt. If I recall correctly, the sale of the "John Quincy Adams" collection was actually just the sale of the Massachusetts Historical society. Only some of the coins were from Adams' collection.

 

Good to see you again YOC

I'd be willing to pay a reasonable premium if the coin had a good provenance, but not an over-the-top premium.

 

I have been talking with DS regarding this and he was able to verify the following:

 

Not really. The seller would be the one who loses out not having the monopoly. If I buy from the guy who found 800 coins and buy 700, it matters not that he may want to sell 100 or keep them. ? coins would still have the provenance......

 

you too VK

 

I agree with this.

 

prove it.

[the provenance]

 

OP, what is the value of coins found in a relatively unknown hoard? Not much IMHO than the coins themselves. I think it might help marketing it to non-ancient collectors actually. A large number of our coins are found in hoards, so just documentation of a non-famous hoard is not very notable.

 

Regarding the John Quincy Adams collection. I have spoken with one of the directors for the MA Historical Society. She stated that all the coins involved in the sale came from the John Quincy Adams Collection. The question that is not answerable is whether John Quincy Adams ever owned the coin himself. For several generations after his death other family members continued to add to the collection. Personally this makes no difference to me as the reason I would like to own pieces from this collection is that I am genealogically related to the family.....

 

Provenance is very important to me whether the coin was previously owned by a famous collector or by a ham-n egger like me. I've kept records of every coin I've acquired in the last 40 years or so. They include the date I bought it, the amount I paid, who sold or gave it to me and general notes of interest. I've actually researched some pieces to see if I could come up with previous auctions or sales results for the coin. Many times when I bid on a counterstamp I'll contact the seller and see if they know anything of interest about it.
As far as added value goes...I would say double the "book" value or even more depending on how much I'm interested.

Bruce

 

I did purchase this coin. Mainly for the provenance, but the coin is strong as well. I'll post it when I get it.

 

Every one of us has a provenance. Some of us don't know who daddy was. I have 16 great grandparents and know the names of 8. One of the 8 is connected with an interesting (to me) story and I have a tintype photo of him. He is worth more than the others. If he had been President of the US, that would be worth more. If he had been hanged for being a thief, that would be worth more (especially if I had that photo!). It is the same with the coins. Being part of a recent hoard found in England adds very little interest to a coin. Having been the denarius handed to Jesus in the Tribute Penny story (and could prove it!!!) would be priceless. It all depends on what we will pay.

 

My last comment to Bing was that I would buy the coin if he didn't. The JQA attribution may be less than concrete but it means more to me than having been in a numbered Triton Sale and we reqularly see things like that bring extra. We each will have our preferences.

The JQA sale included a very nice liberal Janus/prow as that was illustrated and sold as a single coin lot (many were not). I would love to have that coin and believe it would bring five times the price of another coin of its type. That is a lot more than it is 'worth' but I have faith that we would find two bidders who would each think that they needed that coin.

 

I believe all coins from this hoard have been photographed in groups of 3 by the BM. How can anyone PROVE a coin is what they purport it to be...... photos I guess, and then it's down to trust. The purpose of the post was to see what value people would put on a coin with provenance they were happy with......not how to prove the provenance was good. I am sure we all have differing degrees of proof we seek when purchasing....