What is world's oldest bronze coin? (not gold/silver)

"Mark" or "Mark of value." Would an obverse or reverse design be considered the mark of the issuing authority?

 

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Playing Devils Advocate here: even with your definition most of the early coinage still would not be considered 'coins' as they were very frequently not marked at all. And even with the later pieces the markings were purely decorative and not consistent to any authority. It's a slippery slope!

For me, coins and money are pretty much interchangeable.

 

True. We could debate this all night and all month...

But let's not . It's just semantics.

I like coins (my definition of coins), dolphin money, the odd Chinese spade and knife stuff shown by @TypeCoin971793, and pretty much everything shown on the CoinTalk Ancients forum .

 

Not necessarily. There are countless examples (just within the most common, Roman) of where value is not marked, nor the issuing authority, either.

 

I meant more general than that. So putting Apollo on the obverse would serve as the mark of the issuing authority, and was exchanged at a certain rate.

 

Besides visiting Akagras, modern day Agrigento in Sicily, and thoroughly intrigued with the Valley of Temples, I always thought that the bronzes of Syracuse and Akagras were the oldest bronze coinage. That's why I had to get this circa 420 BC Akagras Hemillitrion.

 

"What is world's oldest bronze coin? (not gold/silver)"

The question puzzles me. How many bronze coins are made of gold or silver? So why the parenthetical qualifier?

 

Back to Olbia, this one courtesy of CNG

Description
SKYTHIA, Olbia. Circa 470-460 BC. Cast Æ (45mm, 82.28 g). Head of Athena left, wearing Attic helmet; to left, dolphin upward; all within incuse circle / Wheel with four spokes (‘solar disk’). Anokhin 157; Karyshkovskij –; Frolova & Abramzon 139 corr. (no letters on rev.[?]); SNG BM Black Sea –; SNG Pushkin –; SNG Stancomb –; Sutzu II –. Good Fine, untouched, “as found” thick rough green patina. Extremely rare, approximately only 4 of this type known, 2 of which are in museums.
From the Alex Shubs Collection.
Olbia
[IACP 690]
Olbia was settled by Milesian colonists in the early sixth century BC (Eusebius’ date of 647/6 BC is now thought to refer to the foundation of Olbia’s neighbor, and later emporion , Borysthenes), near the confluence of the Hypanis and Borysthenes rivers. The earliest coinage of the city, considered by some to be proto-money, was cast bronze in the form of dolphins, which was likely developed as a local trade coinage in the vein of the cast arrowhead money of Borysthenes, which was already in widespread use in the region. The earliest of these coins had dolphins on both sides, but on later issues one side was flat and usually had some lettering. While Olbia is thought to have had an aristocratic constitution from its beginning, this government form was replaced by a tyranny circa 480 BC. Herodotos (4.78–80) and numismatic evidence also suggests that in the early to mid-fifth century Olbia was under the protection of the Skythian king Skylas, though all of his coinage is known from the city of Nikonion (see Lot 104, below). Olbia became a member of the Delian League after 437 BC, and democratic control was reestablished by the early 4th century. There is abundant epigraphic and archaeological evidence for the presence of numerous patron deities, but the most significant of these was Apollo Delphinios, whose cult became preeminent at Olbia from the late 6th century.
Olbia was one of the most prolific issuers of coinage in the region, and its issues span the length of its early history, lasting well into the Roman period. As mentioned above, the earliest coinage consisted of cast bronze dolphins, which was followed by large cast bronzes with the head of Athena and a dolphin on the obverse, and a four-spoke wheel (or solar disc) on the reverse. These were later succeeded by other cast bronzes with a facing gorgoneion on the obverse and a sea-eagle holding a dolphin on the reverse. This reverse image became an archetype that appeared on numerous issues over the next couple centuries. Most of the subsequent issues in the pre-Roman period featured the portrait of one of the city’s patron deities on the obverse, and either that or another deity’s attributes on the reverse. The portrait and attributes of the city’s primary patron deity, Apollo Delphinios, are featured on some of the city’s coinage, but Demeter, another of the city patrons, is far more common on the various denominations. Other deities found on Olbia’s coins include Zeus, Athena, and Herakles. The river-god Borysthenes also features prominently on the large issues of the late 4th-early 3rd centuries. One of the most interesting aspects of Olbian coinage is the existence of a fairly large civic gold issue in the later fourth century BC, which consisted of two denominations, staters and hemidrachms, struck on the Attic standard. While other northwestern Black Sea cities struck rare gold issues, they were almost exclusively royal issues struck for various dynasts, or else military issues of posthumous Lysimachos type. Olbia also struck a variety of silver issues, usually in multiple denominations, at various times from the later 4th to 2nd centuries BC.

 

Need I mention I don't have one?

Early Cast Coinage of Olbia
Triton XX, Lot: 84. Estimate $20000.
Sold for $20000. This amount does not include the buyer’s fee.

SKYTHIA, Olbia. Circa 480-470 BC. Cast Æ (79mm, 369 g). Head of Athena left, wearing crested Attic helmet with an H on the bowl; to left, dolphin upward; all within incuse circle / Wheel with four spokes (‘solar disk’). Karyshkovskij –; V&K –; Anokhin 155 var. (no letter on helmet); SNG BM Black Sea –; SNG Pushkin –; SNG Stancomb –; Frolova & Abramzon –; Sutzu II –. Good VF, dark brown patina with patches of red and green encrustation. Extremely rare.

 

This is a coin that has the denomination, and issuing authority written on it... (not Round...)

China Sui Dynasty 589-619 CE (possibly 200-100 BCE - Western Han) 4-Shu Hartill 13.53 w-hanger below RARE

SQUARE:

Baktria Greco-Baktrian Kingdom Eukratides I Megas 170-145 BCE Dioscuri AE Quadruple Unit

 

I forgot about these! Good call.

 

I thought the etymology of coin came from a word meaning wheel and denoted something round? I'll have to check. I would call those Chinese units of exchange "tokens" but not coins, which are round.

 

Hmmm... stated denominations, issuing authorities, etc. Coins are both denominated by precious metal values and/ or written. Coins are all tokens, as they are Fiat, and do not reflect their TRUE values in their precious metal values.

Why would a coin HAVE to be ROUND? There were SQUARE coins also. And if Square coins are acceptable, why not any other shape that denotes a denomination, issuing authority, and is ACCEPTED as that unit of value in a transaction?

 

Not all coins are round. Who says they have to be?

 

I'm speaking strictly in terms of etymology, but I might be mistaken. Of course, I'm aware of other square and even guitar shaped coins. But should we call them coins?

 

Apparently I was mistaken, I see "wedge" but not "wheel":

c. 1300, "a wedge," from Old French coing (12c.) "a wedge; stamp; piece of money; corner, angle," from Latin cuneus "a wedge." The die for stamping metal was wedge-shaped, and the English word came to mean "thing stamped, a piece of money" by late 14c. (a sense that already had developed in French). Compare quoin, which split off from this word 16c. Modern French coin is "corner, angle, nook." Coins were first struck in western Asia Minor in 7c. B.C.E.; Greek tradition and Herodotus credit the Lydians with being first to make and use coins of silver and gold.

 

Then by the etymological definition, should cast coins be excluded from "coin"dom?

We could debate the definition of "coin" endlessly. I think the real problem with these arguments is that collectors of non-Western super-ancient money feel slighted (needlessly) when Google tells people the oldest "coins" are from Lydia.

Whatever. All of the stuff seen in this thread is cool It's all really old money.

 

You know things are crazy when you are tagged three times in the same thread.

My definition of a "coin" is an object issued by a governmental authority for the expressed use as a means to exchange for goods and services (read, "money"). Spade and knife coins were issued by the various governments under the Zhou Dynasty (and later the Zhou figurehead) as only a monetary good. The spades were not good for anything other than being used as money since all functionality as farming tools had been stripped. They often had a mark of issuing authority (name of mint/city/state/issuer/etc.). The only way that they do not fit in your definition of a "coin" is their shape, and I find that highly discriminatory.

Cowries, imitations, bridge money, fish money, lotus money, shield money, etc. are all considered proto money and not coins because they were all privately minted, have no markings, and have no established value. There is also no clear evidence (except for cowries) that they were used as money, and were instead probably used as funerary items.

 

My earliest AE coins:

Hollow-Handled Spade. Ca 600-400 BC. (Likely pre-500 BC based of literary texts of that era.) The obverse character has not been deciphered (I cannot find it anywhere), but it is almost certainly a mint name of some sort.



Another Hollow-Handled spade, though later in the progression. Ca 400-300 BC. The obverse character is "Wu," which is the name of a military city in the state of Liang. This one might be fake, but I am not too concerned if it is.



Here is an arch-foot spade, which is said to be the bridge between the hollow-handles and flat-handles. Ca 400-300 BC. This one has a clear issuing authority (State of Liang) and a clear denomination (2 Jin). I'd love to see you try to prove this to not be a coin. @TIF



This is a Qi knife. Ca 400-220 BC. The obverse reads "Qi Fa Hua" or "Qi Legal Money." Qi refers to the name of the state which minted these. Again, if this is not a coin, then what is?



This is the earliest round coin issued in China, ca 350-220 BC. Its inscription reads "Yuan," which is the name of the minting city in the State of Yuan. Based on the weights of these coin, it is likely that these were denominated 1 Jin, though mine is a very light specimen at nearly a half Jin. States that produced spade coins denominated their coins in "Jins" and produced round coins with round holes.



Here is another early round coin, though this one is later in the 350-220 BC time period than the above coin. Also note that this is one of the first occurances with the sqare hole. The inscription reads "Yi Liu Hua," which translates at "Six Hua of the City of Yi." This coin was cast by the state of Qi, which made knife coins and denominated its coins with "Hua," or "knife," and produced round coins with sqaure holes. This practice was eventually adopted by the state of Qin as it proved to be the superior manufacturing technique, as coins spin less while being filed on a square rod.

 

There we go.