What is the Philosophy of Grading Series (Seemingly) Differently?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by iPen, Aug 24, 2018.

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  1. Jaelus

    Jaelus The Hungarian Antiquarian Supporter

    Many of these medals have a holing point struck on the coin where the punch is supposed to go - examples without the hole in those cases are considered to be either errors or trials.

    Here's an example from my collection of a Kossuth US (NYC) visitation medal trial from 1852 that illustrates this point.

    Look around 12 o'clock between "KOSSUTH" and "THE" in the legend, and you will see the point intended to be holed (looks like a big asterisk).

    kossuth.jpg

    My point is, for many of these, they aren't just taking a finished medal and punching a hole in it - the punching of the hole is part of the larger manufacturing process. The strike itself is only one component. Depending on the medal, you also have the preparation and finishing of the planchet, edging, holing, coating or enameling, etc..
     
    Jaelus, Sep 13, 2018
    #21 + Quote Reply
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  3. iPen

    iPen Well-Known Member

    So it's all part of the process that determines damage or not.

    Now I'm wondering what the TPGs will do if one of the mints go beyond antique finishes, and introduces worn and weathered finishes lol.
     
    iPen, Sep 13, 2018
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  4. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I could go along with the idea that the folks making these Expo medals, might and I stress might, have been willing to drill holes in them, right there on site, after they were minted, for those buyers who wanted a hole in theirs. I mean, back then a lot of folks wanted to be able to wear momentoes like this on a necklace. So yeah, I could see them doing it for them if they asked for it. And that would also explain why other examples don't have the holes.

    But that wouldn't have anything to do with grading them because it would not be part of the minting process. It would still be post mint damage just like if you drilled the hole yourself.

    And Jaelus, I understand what you are saying. But holing or enameling or coating at medal after the fact, after it was minted could only considered to be part of what you call the larger manufacturing process IF it was done to all the medals - not just some of them. If it's only done to some of them because of buyer's choice, then to my way of thinking one can't consider it to be anything but damage.

    It's a philosophy, a way of thinking, a way of looking at things. And others can see it differently if they choose to do so. Doesn't make them right, but they can choose to do so.

    To me, it's kind like saying that just because coins got scooped up in a scoop shovel - at the mint building - and damaged because of that, that it isn't really damage. Ya see, it doesn't matter who did the damage or when they did, or where they did it. The only thing that matter is that it occurred post strike. And if it occurred post strike then it is undeniably damage. That is the definition of damage that has always applied.

    Want another example ? Take this one -
    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/whoopsie.323510/

    That coin undeniably has graffiti on it, and yet it's been cleanly graded. And that's just one example, just in the past few weeks there have been several coins like this - that there's just no way they deserve to be in a cleanly graded slab - and yet they are.

    It's what the TPGs are doing and have been doing for quite a few years now. It's just their next step on the road to slabbing almost anything and getting the public to buy it - accept it - because it is THEM doing it. Well I say horse puckey ! They can call a mule a horse all day long - and it still aint gonna be a horse !
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 14, 2018
    #23 + Quote Reply
  5. Jaelus

    Jaelus The Hungarian Antiquarian Supporter

    We are in agreement here. The point I was trying to make was that some (not all!) holed medals had the hole punched as an intended part of the minting process and shouldn't be considered damage. Not all holed medals fit that scenario though. Some had multiple versions produced of the same medal - a holed version to hang on a ribbon, and a token (either with or without hole is as minted). Some were produced only without the hole, and were, as in your example, either holed by the buyer or for the buyer outside of the minting process. For those medals it should be considered damage.
     
    Jaelus, Sep 14, 2018
    #24 + Quote Reply
  6. iPen

    iPen Well-Known Member

    But what about hand antiquing say, half the mintage of a given circulation type? So, let's say half of the 2019 circ strike ASEs are given an antiquing finish wherein Mint workers antique the coins by hand. The other half would be regular circulation strike offerings. IMHO, I think that the process alone matters, even if all of the medals were holed by hand.

    That said, if all of the medals were holed, then they'd probably strike it with a hole in it already. But as far as holing the medal by hand, I personally think that that is damage, which is why I am confused by the TPG's grading philosophy. But then again, there may be an ancient minting process that required holing coins by hand after the design was struck... so then that philosophy wouldn't hold up completely.

    And, holing and antiquing seem to be on two different sides of the fence to many numismatists. While some others will say that any work done by hand after striking is damage. I'm not sure how I feel about these "gray" area finishes, but I'm leaning more towards anything that is done after the strike, especially by hand, is technically damage. That would of course exclude ancient coins made by say hammering by hand, and other striking processes that are similarly done by hand.

    But overall, I think we're in agreement and I'm echoing our sentiments about this grading philosophy.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
    iPen, Sep 14, 2018
    #25 + Quote Reply
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