What is PCGS guarantee on copper coins?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Allan, Dec 7, 2019.

  1. Allan

    Allan Member

    I just bought some copper coins graded by NGC and just seen their guarantee on copper coins is only good for 10 years from the date of encapsulation and you have to reholder them before the 10 years is up to keep the guarantee on the grade. Is PCGS guarantee on copper coins any better?
     
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  3. robec

    robec Junior Member

    PCGS stopped with the copper guarantee about 10 years ago.

    I think this is meant for color designation. This means they won’t guarantee a RED won’t change to RB or BN.
     
  4. robec

    robec Junior Member

    This from the PCGS website.

    "We've also made a change in how we handle the guarantee of color for copper coins. The fact is that color for copper can change depending upon where a coin is stored. The villain is humidity, and if you have mint red copper coins stored in Hawaii or Florida, for example, there's a good chance that the environmental factors can alter the color of the coins. This is obviously beyond our control so consequently we will not be guaranteeing the color of copper coins graded or sold after January 1, 2010."
     
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  5. Allan

    Allan Member

    Here is what NGC has on their website

    Copper Coins Notice: Coins made of copper, bronze, brass or are copper-plated can change over time. Accordingly, with regard to copper, bronze, brass or copper-plated coins graded by NGC, the grade portion will no longer apply after the 10 year anniversary of their date of encapsulation by NGC. This coin was encapsulated on 6/13/2019 and the grade guarantee will expire on 6/13/2029. If the grade guarantee has not expired, it may be extended by submitting the coin under NGC's ReHolder service tier. If the grade guarantee has expired, the coin will be treated as a raw (ungraded) submission if resubmitted to NGC.
     
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  6. Allan

    Allan Member

    Thanks robec
     
  7. Randy Abercrombie

    Randy Abercrombie Supporter! Supporter

    First time I saw that from NGC just happened to be when I purchased my life long bucket list coin this year. And it wasn’t a cheap coin either. I believe I am OK. The coin has been stable for 225 years and I am careful with its storage. But that NGC qualification certainly caught me by surprise.
     
  8. Allan

    Allan Member

    It surprises me to I was going to start a Lincoln cent set with NGC but I may go with PCGS now
     
  9. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Don't bet the farm on that. Copper can be and routinely is successfully dipped.

    As for storage, even with best efforts, every environment (place of storage) is unique and can and often does have completely unexpected results on coins in regard to toning.
     
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  10. Old Error Guy

    Old Error Guy Well-Known Member

    From my experience, they will call any potential liability a “mechanical error” and deny any liability. They are shameless. Their guarantee is worthless.
     
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  11. buckeye73

    buckeye73 Active Member

    This is related to the point I made in the previous day thread by OP Idhair in which he asked “Would you crack these old AGC holders?”
    The point is at least one and likely two of the three proof copper coins shown in that thread had deteriorated in quality, if not in grade while housed in the relatively old holders. Regrettably Red coins “degrade” to RB, etc. Also, any foreign material on the coin could contribute to ”copper rot”.
     
  12. Randy Abercrombie

    Randy Abercrombie Supporter! Supporter

    Don’t steal my innocent childlike joy, Doug...:angelic:
     
  13. halfcent1793

    halfcent1793 Well-Known Member

    All of which means that there is no benefit to buying or keeping red or red-brown early coppers in slabs. Slabs aren't air-tight, but there are effective ways to keep early coppers protected.
     
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  14. buckeye73

    buckeye73 Active Member

    Doug, I agree with the vast majority of your statements on anything numismatic and have learned much from your posts. Also, I do not claim to be an expert on the subject, but please reconfirm that you intended to use the word “routinely” in the same statement as “successfully dipped” when referring to copper. We do not want more people messing with coins, especially copper. My take is that very few people are knowledgeable in dipping copper, particularly attempting to restore a red or red brown copper.
    if I am wrong, I will be happy to be corrected.
    Dan
     
  15. CircCam

    CircCam Victory

    Yes, I would guess most of them turn out like Malcolm in the middle here which looks completely wrong even for a wheatie from the 50’s.
    20231200-F70D-42FE-BEE0-6ACDAFE24EFC.jpeg
     
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  16. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Yes, I said exactly what I meant to say.

    I don't want people "messing with" coins either. But dipping is not something that I put in the messing with category. Don't get me wrong, there are cases when it can be, but in a great many cases, and I believe the majority of them, dipping a coin is the right thing to do because it prevents the coin from being inevitably destroyed by the toning.

    You're not wrong Dan, not a whole lot of people are knowledgeable when it comes to dipping copper. In fact the vast majority of people think it can't even be done. But the evidence that is so blatantly right in front of everybody's face says that it can be ! The only reason they can't see it is because it's too bloody obvious !

    Think about it for just a minute or two. Copper is the most reactive (most susceptible to toning) of our coinage metals. Copper tones and tones quickly if ya even "think" the word ! But if ya look at the populations for all of the TPGs do ya know what you'll find ? You'll find that the number of "Red" copper coins far, far outnumbers the number of Red Brown or Brown copper coins residing in slabs.

    And when you take three things into consideration - copper being the most reactive metal, and toning being inevitable on any and all coins, and the age of the coins - there is only one way that the number of Red copper coins can be what it is - the majority of the coins have been successfully dipped. Otherwise they could not even be Red.

    So rather obviously, there are enough people who know how to make that possible.
     
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  17. halfcent1793

    halfcent1793 Well-Known Member

    I concur with almost everything that GDJMSP writes above. However, it is quite possible that another reason there are so many red rather than RB coins slabbed (I haven't checked this but will defer to his greater knowledge on the subject) is that red coins are worth substantially more in the marketplace, so relatively more would be slabbed.

    That does not negate his absolutely correct statement that copper coins can be and have been dipped. I will add that people have bought such things as original red coins.

    He is also right that few people would be knowledgeable enough to dip a copper coin without damaging it. Silver dip absolutely does corrode copper coins. I have also tested the dip that is supposed to be specifically for copper, and it, too, destroys the surface. I did a series of studies of what different cleaning agents do to early coppers and published it in 2018 in Penny-Wise.

    The purpose of that study was to trash some relatively inexpensive old copper coins in the hope that others wouldn't trash their own, much nicer coins.

    I would recommend that NOBODY try to dip a copper coin that has significant value, and any old US copper coin that is UNC has significant value.
     
  18. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    PCGS's only guarantee of copper coins is for authenticity.
     
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