What happens if a coin dealer accidentally sells a fake coin?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Gam3rBlake, Apr 11, 2021.

  1. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    Simply put, an honest dealer will take care of you.
     
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  3. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    That’s good to know!

    I think that’s probably my biggest fear when it comes to coin buying.

    The fear that everyone makes mistakes, including coin dealers, and that I might end up buying a coin that the dealer believes is real only to find out later it’s not.

    So far the closest situation I have had to that is when I bought some Peace Dollars and one of them was slightly bent so it wouldn’t fit in the capsule.

    I bought them from Portsmouth Coin Shop and the owner Daniel offered to refund or replace it but it wasn’t worth paying to ship back and the bend wasn’t that bad anyway like it wasn’t bent in half or anything so I just kept it.
     
  4. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    I dealt with a coin dealer for many years before I moved. Shortly after they sold the shop and retired. If you purchased a coin in a 2x2 and didn't take it out, they knew it was there's by the writing on the flip. If for any reason, even years later, they would refund your money. That's an honest dealer.

    You just can't expect any dealer to do refunds unless you can prove you bought it there. Find an honest dealer and develop a relationship with them. That's the best way to avoid any potential problems. But remember, you learn by making mistakes. Just don't repeat them.
     
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  5. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Believe it or not there was a situation like this many years ago with GM cars. When buyers learned that the Oldsmobiles they were buying had Chevy engines in them, they had a fit. They wanted refunds. I forget how it ended, but this was an example.
     
  6. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    Most dealers are honest and will take care of a problem. That's what I have seen over my years in the hobby. News travels fast between dealers and customers in today's times. Even bad dealers understand that.
     
  7. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    I heard of more than a few cases where a dealer or pawn shop has sold a fake, and claimed the buyer switched coins and will not take it back or refund.

    Buyer Beware. If you aren't 100% sure, don't buy it and know the businesses selling and refund policies before doing business with them.

    I've heard of people selling coins to a pawn shop, and a day or two later try to have the check cancelled, and the shop chasing them saying they were fake, which in the view of the seller, it was fine and that's why the shop bought it and paid for it in the first place.

    Buyer beware and seller beware, There's scams on both sides of transactions, anyone that's spent time on ebay can tell you about their bad experiences on either side of a transaction, this applies also at brick and mortar also.
     
  8. Southernman189

    Southernman189 Well-Known Member

    dealers of coins ALSO sell on Ebay and Amazon and other sites. If bought from them they could and most likely WILL claim you swapped the coin they sent you. So that's buyer beware, check the sellers feedback, if they're a lot of negatives, pass on the purchase. If it looks too good to me true, it most likely is.
     
  9. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect since I was a baby

    I had a recent experience when I bid on a common IHC in a PCGS holder on Ebay. After making my bid a few red flags popped up. The first was that the coin photos weren't the best and I had a hard time justifying it as a MS64 as indicated on the label. I checked the PCGS database and the cert number matched but something seemed wrong with the holder, at least in my eye. After winning the auction I messaged the seller that something looked wrong with the holder and I questioned whether it was fake. The seller didn't hold me to my winning bid and told me that he took the coin to his local LCS and his dealer friend said that it looked legit and he bought it for my winning bid. Whether that was true or not I don't know but at least I didn't have to deal with getting the coin in hand and deal with the possibility of it being fake.
     
  10. John Skelton

    John Skelton Morgan man!

    When I go to my LCS the dealer fills out a receipt, but he never puts down what the coin is, just the price. Even though I trust him, should I ask him to put what the coin is on it?
     
  11. Mr.Q

    Mr.Q Well-Known Member

    Unless the dealer is blind or shady I do not believe he/she would be that careless. Could happen, but highly unlikely, in my opinion.
     
  12. serafino

    serafino Well-Known Member

    Don't give our "Friends" in China any ideas, they might start faking Ferrari's to sell to us suckers here in the USA
     
  13. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    Well, I haven't bought anything in a LCS in a couple of years but when I buy off the bourse at coin shows, anything that is over $50, I request a receipt with the dealers name, phone number, and address plus the date, the price and what the coin is. This is primarily for the purpose of establishing the tax basis value of the coin and insurance coverage. The data goes into my spreadsheet and the receipt goes into my safe. Coin is also photographed and cross-referenced to the spreadsheet and the receipt data. I don't buy many raw coins but when I do it's photographed before it is removed from the dealer's 2x2 or flip. If I was even more anal-retentive, I'd save the old 2x2 or flip but I'm not. For slabs with dealers stickers and decals on them (yes, including Heritage and others) I photograph the slab "as received" before removing the stickers.

    It's amazing how many dealers do not have a receipt pad with their business data on it. If they don't, I ask them to write it down on the back of their business card. Some also don't have business cards, so I ask them to write it down on the blank pad I carry in my bag. Many are happy to accomodate but some are just grumble, grumble, grumble - you'd think I asked for their passport. Some are extremely reluctant to give out any identifying information at all like business name, address, phone number, etc. I'm all for security but that is ridiculous. You just sold me a coin for $800 cash and you won't tell me your name?!?!?

    If the coin is under about $50, I just write it down myself but I don't buy much of anything collectible for less than $50 so it's not a problem for me.

    Never bought a fake to my knowledge so I don't have any experience in trying to return a coin. But, I imagine my documentation would probably work OK except in the face of a particularly unscrupulous person.
     
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  14. Bob Evancho

    Bob Evancho Well-Known Member

    I don't believe any legitimate, knowledgeable coin dealer will ACCIDENTLY sell a fake. There are enough books written about the die characteristics of US and many foreign coins and enough reference on the internet for a coin dealer to assure a customer the coin they are selling is authentic.
    I have been a coin collector for 66 years and have consulted for governmental authorities on counterfeit and altered US coins. I've never bought a fake coin but I have bought counterfeit and altered coins to take them off the market or to use them as show and tell and at prices commensurate with the fact the coin is not authentic. Usually $5 to $10. When I do sell a key extra coin from time to time, I give the buyer an education on the die characteristics of the genuine coin and how they can identify a genuine raw coin.
    If you do buy a key coin raw from a dealer, ask them to prove the authenticity based on die characteristics of a genuine coin, metal content (most dealers I find will not invest in an XRF device), weight, diameter, reeded edge count, minting process, etc.. And get everything in writing and take a picture and write down any characteristics that will identify the coin in case you have to return it.
    I know dealers in my area who have sold counterfeit and altered coins (usually due to lack of knowledge) and when the buyer brought the coin back, they refunded the buyers money. Good dealers stand behind their merchandise and there are many good dealers on Coin Talk.
    Everyone (Dealers and Collectors) should study Federal Trade Commission; 16 CFR Part 304; Rules and Regulations Under the Hobby Protection Act #00011.
     
    wxcoin likes this.
  15. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    But if you say “I don’t believe any legitimate, knowledgeable, coin dealer will accidentally sell a fake” you have to remember that no one is perfect. Accidents happen and even experts in their fields make mistakes sometimes.

    For example I have heard dealers tell me about incidents where someone brought in dozens of coins and the dealer was being rushed and a fake slipped through.

    My local coin dealer had that happen a few years ago with Walking Liberty Half Dollars. Someone brought in a bag of them and there was a fake in there.
     
  16. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    This. It’s silly to hold anyone to the standard of being the world renowned expert in everything. There’s a $4 Stella in a landfill somewhere from an accident but a world renowned expert in his field.

    Accidentally should have been knowingly. Legitimate sellers won’t knowingly do so it accidents are just that accidents.
     
  17. Bob Evancho

    Bob Evancho Well-Known Member

    The Point you make is Dealers buying coins in bulk and getting a counterfeit or altered coin in Their purchase. Did that dealer Accidently sell that single coin to a customer? That is the issue. What I mentioned is no legitimate or knowledgeable dealer would sell that particular coin. On the other hand if he was flipping the hoard or bag without looking over the coins, he didn't accidently sell a counterfeit. He sold what he believed was a genuine hoard of genuine coins. He should have checked all the coins at some point to guarantee count and authenticity. I find that most collectors buy the coin before they garner the knowledge from buying the book or doing research on the die characteristics of a genuine coin they want to add to their collection. One LCS sold a circulated 1896-S Morgan dollar. I was asked to authenticate it because it was 27.1 grams instead of 26.73. First thing I did was check its metal content. It was 94% silver (XRF determination). Second thing I did was check its die variety. The obverse die did not match the only reverse die marriage that was paired for a genuine coin of that VAM variety. Further study indicated transfer dies were used to strike the counterfeit coin. Keep in mind the 1896-O, 1900-O and 1902-O micro o Morgan's that fooled PCGS. When I brought in all the information on this Counterfeit coin, the dealer refunded the purchaser. That is what a legitimate dealer does and it promotes good will.
     
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  18. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    I'll add to that, one who has brains and wants to stay in business.
     
  19. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Just tell us if it happens, we'll get you right. There's too much here to juggle. Bottom line, you're paying honest money because of how they're representing it, right? You deserve to be taken care of if they represented it wrong. Just let us know, we'll get you through it.
     
    Gam3rBlake likes this.
  20. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    Thanks! Fortunately I’ve never had that happen to me but I am just trying to learn about this hobby and asking questions so if the situation came up I would know what to do.

    What made me think about it was watching a Spegtacular YouTube video about fake coins in fake slabs.

    He was pointing out the differences between real NGC slabs and the fake ones from China.

    The fakes had fake “MS 70” American Silver Eagles but they looked very close to the real thing.

    What made the person who sent them to him suspicious was that the ASEs were definitely not MS70. They had a lot of dings and that is what led him to inspect the slab more closely and determine it was fake as well.

    Things like that scare me because coins aren’t cheap and one or two fake coins could ruin the hobby for someone forever.


     
  21. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Yeah, they don't stop at anything, these days, even the slabs. Fortunately we've a knowledge base here that's pretty much onto them, so draw from the well when you need it, and just don't impulse buy or otherwise rush into anything big when you can help it.
     
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