What happened to Gitbud Numismatik?

I purchased a coin in Gitbud Numismatik Auction 2 9 April 2017. I recently sent the coin, an Ionian EL hekte, to NGC for grading and encapsulation. The coin was returned to me as being not genuine. I thought that Gitbud Numismatik had become Gitbud-Naumann which in is now Numismatik-Naumann, so I contacted NN to request returning the coin for a refund. Yes, I know four years is a long time ago, but I thought a reputable company would still honor my request. The response from NN was that they did not sell me the coin but it was Gitbud Numismatik. Does anyone on CT know what the relationship is, if any, between these companies?

And once again, for those who don't favor sending coins to be graded and encapsulated, if I had done this four years ago, I probably would not be stuck with an $1100 fake coin.

 

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From what I heard, it was Gitbud and Naumann separately, then they joined for a while, but not Naumann now has nothing to do with Gitbud and Gitbud went on his own again. I do not know the financial structuring, but I highly doubt NN would be on the hook to return the coin, since they did not benefit from the auction.

 

Sorry you’re going through this. A lot of people bash grading but it can help avoid being stuck with poorly described, fake coins.

The elitist attitude against grading for authenticity/condition issues should stop. If auction houses sell a fake or poorly described/pictured coin, they should be held accountable. them calling tpgs “so called grading companies” in their auction terms is laughable. A third party evaluation should be considered for all higher end coins. Break it out of the slab after if you want to do so.

 

According to https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=sale&sid=1904 the auction where you purchased the hekte was held by "Gitbud Numismatik GmbH".
According to https://www.northdata.com/Gitbud+Numismatik+GmbH,+München/HRB+233292 the firm "Gitbud Numismatik GmbH" was liquidated 25 Feb 2021.

According to https://numismatik-naumann.com/about-us/ the current firm was founded "in 2010 as Gitbud & Naumann Münzhandlung München GmbH".
https://www.northdata.com/Numismatik+Naumann+GmbH,+München/HRB+183402 seems to back this up, but I am not certain.

 

Thanks for the help, Ed. I guess I've no recourse to anyone then.

 

Except for the tiny fact that NGC explicitly states they are not guaranteeing authenticity. I have used TPG for authenticity for US coins even though I disagree with their grading. But if we do not like their grading, and NGC does not guarantee authenticity, what good is the slab any more than taking it to a dealer at a show and asking their opinion?

 

Let me understand, at the time pecunem hosted Gitbud auctions and naumann auctions?

 

I might be in the minority here, but I think the issue with NGC's grading and slabbing of ancient coins has more to do with the grading aspect of its service, not with its authenticity opinion (which, as noted incessantly, is NOT a guarantee).

I doubt any collector here would criticize any other collector for getting an independent, authoritative opinion on a coin's authenticity. If that's the main, or only, service that NGC provides to you for this coin, then it's money well spent. It's no different from sending the coin to a recognized expert for his/her opinion, and paying for that opinion -- experts don't guarantee their opinion either.

Rather, it's the focus on NGC's grade (and to some extent slabbing) that creates the discussions, debates, and arguments that frequently arise on CoinTalk. While I'm firmly in the "grades are mostly a curiosity and I don't want my coins slabbed" faction, I would never criticize a collector for getting an expert opinion on authenticity, even from NGC.

 

Yes, I now believe that is true. I didn't realize they were two separate companies.

 

And I send them in only for the authentication purpose.

 

Hello tartanheel,
Sorry to hear of your plight.
Not sure why a COA from David Sear isn't an alternative...(is he considered 'chopped-liver' ?)
I had my (small) collection of Ancient Greek coins authenticated by him with the proviso of the sellers that his opinion would have to be acceptable. If the coin proved ersatz I would be able to return it for full refund.
I liked this arrangement because it allowed me to handle my coins directly & 'feel their history'.
To each his on, I suppose,
J.T.

 

I know nothing, however what makes it a fake? Are there lots of fakes of this type around? Just curious.

 

Strangely, this is the fourth story along these lines that I have heard this week! It seems that at a certain point, many trusted auctions let their guards down / got sloppy, and the results are beginning to be felt.

I myself do not agree with NGC grades 60-70% of the time, but they generally arent planets away from me, and I absolutely trust their experts on authenticity - they have a superb internal library, and also maintain an extensive network of trusted experts. I have never (to my subsequent knowledge) seen a fake ANCIENT coin in a genuine NGC slab (not true of some other series, such as Spanish colonial 8r pieces, but that is another story).

Sure, they might sometimes have one slip through, but they GREATLY reduce the chances of being fooled by sophisticated counterfeits which are good enough to fool even reasonably well versed dealers such as myself.

 

I guess I don't send them in only for the authentication; I think coins that are encapsulated have added some value and are easier to sell when the time comes. And, yes, I know there are those will probably disagree with me about that, but that is how I feel.

 

Not sure why it was determined to be not genuine. It would be nice if NGC pointed out why it rated that designation.

 

Archive.org has preserved parts of the Pecunum web site. For example, https://web.archive.org/web/20160829211958/https://www.pecunem.com/auction-schedule tells us that auctions 39 and 40 were Gitbud & Naumann, but 40-42 were Numismatik Naumann.

The guarantee of a firm is only as good as the firm. I got burned with a fake in a Helios auction. That firm, run by Rob Freeman, is no more.

With ancient coins there are often disagreements about authenticity. NGC is one of the best. How many firms are willing to face the reputation risk of a public disagreement with NGC?

 

If it's the blank type, the punch looks extremely suspicious and I remember @Barry Murphy saying they had several of such types which caused problems in the market.

 

Ah yes, Rob Freeman. I bought a NewStyle from Helios. It turned out to be a fake, but an ancient fake/imitation. Instead of Roma it had Aetolia and is very interesting and I am the proud owner of special coin.

Athens New Style Tetradrachm c90/9 BC
Obs : Athena Parthenos right in tri-form helmet
29 mm 16.53 gm Thompson issue (new) 75
Thompson catalogue: IMITATION Obs : 1420 Rev : NEW
Rev : ΑΘΕ ethnic
Owl standing on overturned panathenaic amphora
on which month mark A control ? below
2 magistrates : XENOCLES HARMOXENOS
RF symbol : Aetolia ?
All surrounded by an olive wreath

 

I generally prefer certificates of authenticity (COAs) for ancients, versus slabs, if the COA has photos of the coin obverse and reverse.
However, I like the authentication benefits of NGC slabs, for ancients.
An NGC slab gives some assurance of authenticity, but as medoraman said, NGC states on their web site, that they don't guarantee authenticity for ancient coins.
"NGC Ancients is committed to grading only genuine coins, but it does not guarantee authenticity, genuineness or attribution, nor is any guarantee of these aspects implied."
"... with ancient coins NGC Ancients will only guarantee the grade."
https://www.ngccoin.com/specialty-services/ancient-coins/guarantee.aspx
However, as far as I know, NGC seems to do a pretty good job, of authenticating the ancient coins they slab, although I imagine that, they are not infallible (therefore no guarantee of authenticity for ancients).
If I ever wanted to have a 3rd party check the authenticity of one of my ancient coins, I would probably choose to get a COA, rather than a slab, because that is my personal preference.
As J.T. Parker mentioned, David R. Sear, the author of the Sear books, has a COA service.
https://www.davidrsear.com/certification.html
Does Sear "guarantee" his authentication? I don't know. But he is an expert, like the folks at NGC, therefore I would trust him, as much as I trust NGC.
The only down side of Sear, is that his web site doesn't seem to have a way to look up a coin that has a Sear COA, by serial number, with photos of the coin on the web site. Or maybe it does. I don't know. I haven't found such a thing, so far.
A COA could conceivably be faked, because it's a piece of paper. But a web site lookup by serial number, with photos of the coin on the web site, seems like it would very difficult to fake, because every ancient coin looks so different, from other ancient coins (different flan shape, different strike, different wear, etc). The web site photos are extremely reassuring, if you are thinking about buying a coin. And it helps, if you are selling the coin, to reassure potential buyers.
If there is no web site lookup by serial number with photos on the web site, then it seems to me, a COA is more valuable, if you get the COA directly from the COA company, after you ship your coin to the COA company. But if you want to buy a coin, and the seller happens to have a COA that the seller got from someone else, then the COA is less valuable, because of the possibility of a fake COA. On the other hand, if the seller is an expert, and if the seller offers his/her own COA, then that is valuable.
The NGC web site lookup service, by serial number, which has photos of the slabbed coins on the web site, is the most valuable part of the NGC slab service, to me.
I have bought coins in NGC slabs. For each of those coins, I wrote down the slab number, and took photos of the coin in the slab, so that I can still refer to the coin on the NGC web site, by serial number, and see the photos of the coin, on the NGC web site, which then functions as a COA. Then, I removed the coin from the slab.
I wish there was an authentication service, which offered COAs, with a web site lookup, by serial number, with photos of the coins on the web site. I don't know of any such services.

 

P.S. : I guess provenance is like a COA or slab, so provenance is good too, especially if there are photos on a web site, like ACsearch. Especially if the coin was in an auction, and if the auction company is known for doing a good job of checking the authenticity of the coins in its auctions, or if the past owner of the coin was an expert. Or if the past owner was known for having authentic coins and very few fakes, or no fakes.