What exactly is "proof-like"?

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by Hiddendragon, Jan 29, 2021.

  1. Hiddendragon

    Hiddendragon World coin collector

    I have a bunch of Canadian coins from the 1960s-80s that are labeled "P.L." on the holders from the person I bought them from. I assume this means "proof-like." The coins have a mirror finish but don't have the frosted look that proofs often have, and there are no proofs listed for most of these dates. But they don't look to me like just uncirculated coins. So what exactly are these? Here's an example. If I scan them you won't see the mirror surface so I'm trying to give you an idea with this picture from my phone. IMG_20210129_111327513.jpg
     
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  3. Lueds

    Lueds Well-Known Member

    Proof Like means it has reflective surfaces like a proof coin, but it is a business strike.

    The 'frosted' surfaces you mention are usually called cameo, and proofs don't always have cameo look, depends on the treatment of the planchet prior to minting.

    Very nice coin btw!
     
  4. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I agree. It was mints who didn't want to due the work or a real proof, but prepared the coins in a special manner for coins. Basically a high end BU coin sold to collectors. Special Mint Sets from the US in 1965-1967 sometimes are referred like this.
     
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  5. Hiddendragon

    Hiddendragon World coin collector

    So if there's no catalog entry for a proof-like coin but it obviously exists, how do you categorize it or determine value?
     
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  6. Lueds

    Lueds Well-Known Member

    Check the likes of NGC and PCGS coinfacts to see if they have any listed in their library of graded coins. Take into account, the values they attribute to the coins are for those graded by them, or past auction sales.

    feeBay sold listings is also a good source of information on what they are currently selling for (not the asking prices, which aren't always the same as people over price also)

    Edit: Also they are categorised as Proof Like (PL), Deep Mirror Proof Like(DMPL)

    Here's a bunch of PL quarters like yours currently for sale on feeBay

    https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...l1313&_nkw=canada+25+cent+proof+like&_sacat=0
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2021
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  7. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    @Hiddendragon Proof is a method of manufacture, not a grade. Proof coins are characterized by having a strong strike with sharp details and a mirror background that can reflect images at varying distances. There were proof quarters struck in 1982 for the quarters. Google "1982 Canada quarter ngc". Telling the difference is problematic. One of the surest indicators (I think) is the presence of a "squared off" edge as opposed to a chamfered edge (the chamfered edge done to facilitate stacking).
     
  8. TheGame

    TheGame Well-Known Member

    In the case of modern Canadian coins, PL coins were minted specially for mint sets. They are usually considered their own finish, neither proof nor mint state. Coins and Canada gives values for PL coins.
     
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  9. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

  10. stldanceartist

    stldanceartist Minister of Silly Walks

    I once sent NGC a message asking them how they determined the difference between early Canadian proof like and regular business strike coins, as well as the same question for the South African coins from the 50’s and 60’s.

    Received crickets chirping as the response.
     
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  11. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    A Proof is defined by the country that issues it. A Proof-like is usually a non Proof coin that has reflective surfaces like a Proof.

    For whatever reason, the Canadians called their special sets Proof-Like instead of Proof for a long time.
     
  12. expat

    expat Remember you are unique, just like everyone else Supporter

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  13. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Like this Austrian-Hungarian Empire AV 4 Dukaten 1848-A
    These where struck from polished dies/ mine has perfect PL sheen. f5d2ab03ca76e995b53be1c4294754c4.jpg
     
  14. expat

    expat Remember you are unique, just like everyone else Supporter

    Also as an example, this from Haiti with outstanding mirrored finish
    DSC00585.jpg DSC00586.jpg
     
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  15. Kurisu

    Kurisu Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure anyone has actually fully answered the question yet...

    Proof Like does not have anything to do with an actual proof coin when talking about coins that are "business strikes" other than their appearance. Business strikes are meant for circulation, proof strikes are not.
    With research you will see a slight difference when it comes to the dies that were used for either.

    Proof dies receive more attention to their detail (usually more defined and perfect engraving), polishing (much smoother), and strikes (more pressure).

    So Proof Like in regards to business strikes means that the quality of the coin has an appearance of being well, proof like...smoother fields, more detailed strike, sometimes a bit of a cameo look...part luck but often it has to do with it being a coin minted from one of the first strikes from a new die.

    Proof Like "PL" attribution can be applied to any MS condition coin.
    Below are examples of VERY high quality MS (Mint State) modern coins with and without the "PL" attribution.
    Mint State means the coins might have marks from other coins but have NO wear from circulation.

    The links below are both business strike examples.
    Unfortunately it's not easy to dramatically see the difference since one example is much higher resolution...it's also a difficult thing to photograph.

    2019-D Roosevelt Dime in MS69
    https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/2019-d-10c-fb/715605

    2019-D Roosevelt Dime in MS69 PL
    https://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/item/2019-d-10c-pl/722798/669910310083494379

    As a side note...unfortunately, especially with some world coins, people like to polish them. A polished coin can not be proof like, and anyone who knows coins well will immediately be able to tell that the coin has been polished. A polished coin is basically a novelty and no longer has any real numismatic value.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2021
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  16. proof IS a grade and it is recognised by every single garading service on the planet.
     
  17. Hiddendragon

    Hiddendragon World coin collector

    Thanks for all the explanations!
     
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  18. Kurisu

    Kurisu Well-Known Member

    Proof designates the type of strike the coin is...it is followed by a grade.
    I.E. "PF 69"
     
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  19. Jaelus

    Jaelus The Hungarian Antiquarian Supporter

    This, and Canada is not the only country to have done this. This is a somewhat confusing point with TPGs. PL can be either a designation OR it can be a strike type. As a designation, PL only applies to business strikes. For countries that have a mid-tier collector finish between business strike and proof, these are usually given the strike type PL. So for a coin intended to be made proof-like for a collector set, you could have the grade PL66, whereas for a proof-like business strike of the same quality, it would be MS66 PL. These PL strike types will have NO frosting on the devices (at least I've never seen one that does), and will have an appearance quite different from a proof or proof-like business strike.
     
  20. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Its pretty easy/
    PROOFS are special coins struck off polished dies/ and where designated as "Proofs"
    Prooflike is a coin sruck from fresh dies, so that there is no wear.
    Here is a Roman aureus from 286AD/ looks prooflike
    then a Biafra AV 25 Pounds struck as a Pro IMG_0021.JPG IMG_0023.JPG image30406.jpg of
     
  21. TheGame

    TheGame Well-Known Member

    Canadian PL coins do exist with cameo. ICCS recognizes it and I'm pretty sure at least one of the American TPGs does as well. Here's the first one I found on ebay, as an example.
     
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