what do you think of TPG's you have used?

Be sure to let your heart surgeon know how forgiving you are.

It's easy to challenge a mint-mark mistake. Try getting them to correct a grading error and see what their response is.

 

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So... are you comparing coin graders to heart surgeons?
Even surgeons make mistakes, but seriously.. no one ever died because of a mistake in the grading or encapsulation of a coin. I would bet a few heart attacks could be attributed to someone getting a coin back body bagged though
I have never had a problem with a grade that a coin has come back as, i have even had coins body bagged and used it as a learning experience.

Thanks for the info on PCI speedy!

 

I don't have any real expensive coins as of yet. I was wondering what you guys think of using UGS on some 2001 Kennedy halves and 06 sackajawea* coins just to see if I can get any graded at 70 and then maybe send any 70's to NGC or PCGS to get regraded. If this was done it seems likely that it might be dropped to a 69 though. I just can't see sending in a possible 10 dollar valued coin in and spending atleast 16 dollars to find that out.. yanno.
When I saw that a 2006 silver quarter graded at 70 is worth over 400 dollars it made me think that it wouldn't hurt to get some of my coins graded.
any opinions?

 

IMHO you should learn how to grade before you send any off---and then send off the one that you think you should---a 70 is a grade that I don't even count----there will always be a mark or a nick somwhere IMO--even some of the expert grades miss the 70 grade....they send in a coin that they think is good and it comes back lower.

Speedy

 

You're a lucky guy. I pulled an FBL Franklin from a roll my father got at the bank when I was a boy. I remember going with him on such excursions. The coin came back body-bagged as improperly cleaned. I called NGC, as I felt the coin should have probably been a 66 at least. I was told that I could resubmit it, for another grading fee of course.

You see, I understand that people make mistakes. TPGs, or NGC in this case, just showed me far too much arrogance in telling me to resubmit the coin and pay another fee. At the very least, it should have been a free re-submission. My personal opinion --- and it is an opinion so please don't start flaming me --- is that only large-volume submitters ever get an MS66 FBL or better. Maybe you, Ranchhand, have had better experiences with TPGs. If so, congratulations and keep right on submitting. As for me, I'll trust my own expertise garnered from my years of experience and my interactions with reputable coin dealers, and go for the raw coin whenever possible.

I'll let all you folks go ahead and rebut, as you no doubt will. I've had my say and don't wish to be drawn any deeper into the debate. You obviously like the TPGs and I don't. I doubt I'll win you over to my opinion and I know you won't win me over to yours.

 

There are no universally accepted and enforced grading standards.
Even if there were, grading is still a subjective judgement.
The TPGs vary in quality.
The hobby seems to attract scam artists.
The buying and selling of coins is about as laissez faire as things get these days.
Most TPGs just aren't very well run businesses.
None of the TPGs seems to want to compete on the basis of quality of customer service.

Add all of that together and there are going to be disappointments.

 

PCGS I know has a thing to where you can send in a coin you think that they undergraded...you pay $5 and if they agree with you then that is sent back to you---I think NGC does that too but am not sure--you might want to call if you still have the coin and the bodybag and ask to talk to their PR man

no "Flaming" is a rule here so you don't need to worry about that---but I do disagree with you total---I have gotten some good grades from NGC and ANACS and have never sent in many---in fact it was my first NGC submit and I got great ones.

I also only trust my own grading and take the TPG's grade only after I have graded it myself--if I disagree with the TPG I take another look--if I still disagree that is too bad for the TPG.

I'm not going to try to win you over---I like Raw coins myself---but I do think that TPG's have their place in the hobby and use them.

Speedy

 

Personally (no flames please ), I don't think TPGs belong any place in the hobby, maybe in the coin business, but definately not in the hobby.

Please post a picture of your Franklin. I'd love to see a beautiful example without it being covered in plastic.

Take Care
Ben

 

LibertyBell:
I do not want to flame you, far from it. I am sorry if it appeared like i was in your previous forum post (where i brought up why i like TPG) I understand you had a bad experience, and no one is forcing you to deal with TPG's. If i had an experience like yours right off the bat with a TPG i would probably have the same feelings you do. I like debates, and respect your opinion.

BoneDigger:
I would disagree with you about TPG having no place in the hobby, but you are perfectly reasonable with believing that they do not. I have always been of the opinion that if you do not like TPG's, then don't use them. go ahead and crack them out of their "coffins", its your choice.

--

Its kind of funny, the whole "to slab or not to slab" reminds me of the "Macintosh vs PC" wars, or the "ford is better then dodge" discussions... heck toned vs white as well Its just something i have noticed.

--

I would like to steer this discussion back on topic, with regards to opinions on TPG services (not the debate on TPG or not to TPG)

I just picked up my first batch of coins form ANACS and am THRILLED!
I will write up a full report tonight (with pictures) but here is my first reactions:

TOP NOTCH customer service, the individual I dealt with is named Bob... he really went above and beyond the call of duty. He was helpful, knowledgeable, and really treated me well. Most of the coins came back cleaned (more on that later)
He could have treated me like a no-body because i did not have "spectacular" coins, but he didn't. I did not feel like i was being talked down to, and no hint of arrogance. Far from it.
I submitted my coins "slow boat", and they STILL got them graded a WEEK ahead of schedule!!!!

as you can tell, i am very happy with ANACS right now. I will give all of the details of my submission tonight or tomorrow.

 

Speedy I do not agree with this. There will not always be a mark or a nick. All grading services recognize the MS/PR 70. Maybe some old timers and would be old timers say a 70 cannot exist but in 1987 a 1986 ASE was the first coin to be graded MS70 by PCGS and many 70's have surfaced since. The US Mint really started to care for and preserve MS coins, at least commemoratives, in 1982 and proofs well before that. The 70 grade does exist and likely is here to stay. IMHO to say anything different is to mislead collectors, especially new ones.

 

Well John I guess you would have to decide what size of magnification you would be useing to decide if there are any marks/nicks/hairlines...etc....each grading company uses a different type---
If you use just the un-aided eye then yes I'll agree with you...
I guess I was taught grading by the old timers---I just don't go along with the 70's...you are right--I should have said in my post that it was my thoughs and not something everyone agreeded on to make it clear to newer collectors


Speedy

 

And Speedy I agree with you, even the highest polished metal looks like a moonscape under enough magnification. But is not the standard ( PCGS or NGC ) 6 power or even 10.

 

It doesn't make sense for a grade to exist, yet have no coin qualify. I don't know if there is any precedent for this in any other area of life. I guess it's like getting 1601 on the SATs or batting 1001 in baseball. Maybe getting a 10.1 in gymnastics or bowling a 301 game.

But I agree that I won't pay 70 prices and a 69 is about as high as I'm going to need for just about anything.

 

I am debating whether to get a:
QX3/5 microscope
Macro Lens for my Canon 10D
Put the money toward my recently started Barber Dime Collection (The 1895-O is going to be a big bite).

When I do finally get pictures, I will post some though.

Steve

 

Cloudsweeper that is the beauty of it. There are 70's from the top 2 TPG's that most people could not or would not want to afford. But there are others out there at much more reasonable prices, sometimes a cent on the dollar. You have to pick and choose a lot, a whole lot, but it is inevitable that they are there.

 

wow, this thread has made so many right turns
from whether or not to even use TPG, to the debate on if MS70 is valid...

I am going to write up my opinon on ANACS with the pros and cons tomorrow, I need to sleep on it. Right now warm and fuzzys, I want to write a review with a clear head though.

If i would have written an opinion on PCGS the day i got my saint back i would have just been positive, and forgotten the 3 MONTHS i had to wait for it to come back...

 

If you go right you will never go wrong!
I can't wait to read on what you think about ANACS---I sent coins to the OLD ANACS but haven't had much trust in the new ANACS---my dealer sent away some coins to them and liked what he saw.

Speedy

 

About this whole 'Is 70 possible' question, I have two words:


MARKET GRADING.

 

ANACS

Pros
Really good turnaround, I my coins where done 1 week ahead of schedule.
LOCAL PICKUP AND DROPOFF! YAY! I don;t need to pay $35+ in registered mail fees to send/get back my coins
Reasonable grading costs (slightly cheaper then NGC)
Super friendly customer service, really nice!
If a coin has active PVC puts coin in bodybag, BUT (and this is a big one) will re-grade the coin after you have taken care of the PVC (they only charge $5, way better then a NG)
Will slab problem coins with details grade (in old style holder)
Really nice holder, Its my new fav. the slab uses very clear plastic.
Slab does not have distracting gaskets, or molding. Coin is very viewable!
Can not see the edge of the coin (you can if you look hard, but you stil can't make any judgments)
Of the coins I have sent in, grading was fare IMO.
No clubs to join, any one can submit (5 coin minimum for slow boat)

Cons
NO REGISTRY. This is a big one for me!
No online tracking of orders
Some people are still wary of them with the change of ownership
Limited slab options (Once again, I am a big fan of NGC's multi coin holder)


I encourage anyone that has not taken a look at a new anacs slab to find one and examine it, pictures really do not do them justice.
Once I examined a coin in the clearview holder I really started to notice the problems with other company's slabs.
NGC's slabs have the huge white "bar of soap" that can be hard on the eyes if you are studying a coin for a long priod of time, the optics are also a little bit cloudy. I have heard that they have improved the optical quality of their new slabs, as soon as my latest submission comes back I will post my thoughts.
PCGS slabs have comparable optical quality, but the gasket and molding around the coin is distracting to me now that I have seen the clearview holder.
A coin in the new ANACS slab seems to "float" in the clear plastic, when examining it their are no distractions to pull your eye away form the coin.

Now on to the details of my recent submission:
I had a batch of coins that I knew where cleaned, and some that where questionable. I decided to send them to ANACS mostly because they will encapsulate problem coins, and I really wanted their opinion on some of these coins.
Here are the details:

1915 Pan-Pacific commemorative
I received this coin in trade, and knew up front that it had been cleaned. it appeared to have XF details to me. The cleaning is NOT harsh at all, in fact it looks like it was wiped gently a LONG time ago.
The coin came back cleaned, with a details grade of AU58. Considering how hard it is to find this coin, and how expensive it gets, I am happy with the grade (and the coin).

1921 Alabama 2X2
This coin was one I was very curios about, it could be a slider, but may end up MS. The coin has two small marks on the rim, I was curious to see whether or not it would come back rim damaged.
Instead it was bagged as having PVC... I will take care of the PVC and bring it back on Tuesday, the cost to re-examine a PVC coin is $5. No big deal, the gentleman I talked to was very nice and informative on what I needed to do.
The interesting thing about this coin was that I got it for a STEAL. I paid LESS then XF price for it because of the "rim damage". The rim nicks are very small, and could very easily be contact marks. I wil post what happens to this guy when I get it back.

1920 Maine
This coin was one that I picked up for a good price, It has heavy toning on it... almost "coppery" in appearance. The coin exhibits a weak strike and lapped dies (common for this issue). It does have luster underneath the toning.
The coin came back cleaned with MS details. After examining the coin more carfully I am able to see faint hairlines underneath the toning, so I would agree with the graders opinion.

1892 Columbian
This is the only surprise I had, I purchased the coin as BU, it also exhibits proof like fields. The coin has suburb details on it and a strong strike. Their where some hairlines in the fields, and it looks like they have decided it is cleaning.
This is another coin that I believe may have been wiped a LONG time ago. Its a shame, as a cleaned Columbian might as well just be worth melt value.
I am going to show it to the dealer I purchased it from and see what he thinks. I am not mad or anything, caveat emptor and all that...

1918 Lincoln
This one is the only coin that came back in a clearview. Its a really choice Lincoln, with one reed mark in the field. It has a much stronger strike than is usually found in this issue. A lot of mint luster is evident, but their is a break in the luster around Lincolns cheek, a sign of wear.
The coin came back AU58, something I was expecting... a slider. The grade is fair, and in line with what I expected it to come back as. I have said it before, and I will say it again, I would MUCH rather have a choice AU58 coin that a bagmarked and ugly MS60.

--==============================================

so that is the sum total of my submissions, with only 1 surprise (the Columbian) and 1 unknown (the PVC)


I am really happy with ANACS right now. I have a batch of coins (7 raw) that I was going to send to NGC, I have changed my mind and will be dropping them off at ANACS on Tuesday

I will also be bringing in some of my old ANACS graded coins for re-holdering into the new slabs.
I would like to tell you about their policy on old anacs slabs, as it is kind of like a mini-crossover.
You pay $5 for a reholder. they will re-grade the coin in the reholdering process. IF the coin comes back graded LOWER then it was in the old ANACS slab you will receive a call from ANACS president himself explaining the grade. They will also cut you a check for the fair market difference between the grades (I believe they will also refund the $5, but don;t quote me on that)
The gentleman i spoke with tols me that anacs does not want any coins in its holder that are under OR over graded.

I will be gathering up all of my old anacs for re-submission, and have also decided to crossover some of my PCI graded coins as well (a proof seated liberty half dime)

Right now my only big negative is the fact that ANACS has no registry. If they where to create their own registry, and accept coins form NGC, PCGS, and ICG I believe that they would really give PCGS and NGC a run for the money.

Would I cross-over a PCGS or NGC coin to ANACS? at this point no. I must consider that NGC and PCGS bring more in resale. If ANACS continues on its current coarse they may overtake or get neck and neck with the top two at auction.

Two things will need to happen for me to crossover an NGC or PCGS coin:
1. the market solidifies around anacs
2. anacs gets an on-line registry

I will post pictures of my anacs coins this weekend, I need to pick up a tripod

Thanks for reading this rather lengthy post, if you have any questions please post them (or PM me, whatever you wish)

 

You might be interested in knowing that I heard from James Taylor himself say once that they are working on that---and IIRC it will be done by the end of the year...

Speedy